Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC Min 2003-09-22 I I I 8-25-03 I 9-8-03 I 9-22-03 call City Hall to get correct answers. CLOSED SESSION No Closed Session was held. ADJOURNMENT It was the order of the Chair, with consent of the Council, to adjourn the meeting at 8:00 p.m. with the notation that the September 8" meeting will be canceled and adjourned to a Closed Session on September 220., the next regular meeting to be held on September 22nd. Approved: clerk Attest: Seal Beach, California September 8, 2003 By action of the City Council on July 14th, 2003, the regular Council meeting of September 8th, 2003 was canceled due to the League of California Cities Annual Conference. clerk Seal Beach, California September 22, 2003 The City Council of the City of Seal Beach met in regular adjourned session at 5:30 p.m. with Mayor Campbell calling the meeting to order with the Salute to the Flag. ROLL CALL Present: Mayor Campbell Councilmembers Antos, Doane, Larson, Yost Absent: None Also present: Mr. Bahorski, City Manager Mr. Barrow, City Attorney Ms. Yeo, City Clerk 9-22-03 The City Attorney announced that this would be the time for members of the public wishing to speak to the items on the agenda to do so if desired. CLOSED SESSION The City Attorney stated that the Council would meet in Closed Session to discuss the items identified on the agenda, (a) a conference with the labor negotiator pursuant to Government Code Section 54957.6, (b) to confer with legal counsel with regard to anticipated litigation pursuant to Government Code Section 54956.9(c), and (c) three anticipated cases of litigation pursuant to Government Code Section 54956.9(b). The Council adjourned to Closed Session at 5:31 p.m. and reconvened at 6:41 p.m. with Mayor Campbell calling the meeting to order. The City Attorney reported that the Council had met in Closed Session to discuss agenda items "a" and "b", gave direction to the labor negotiator with regard to "a" and with regard to "b" gave direction to special legal counsel, no other reportable action was taken. I ADJOURNMENT It was the order of the Chair, with consent of the Council, to adjourn the meeting at 6:44 p.m. clerk Approved: '-fJa$irllL ~ e~ Mayor I Attest: Seal Beach, California September 22, 2003 The City Council of the City of Seal Beach met in regular session at 7:00 p.m. with Mayor Campbell calling the meeting to order with the Salute to the Flag. ROLL CALL Present: Mayor Campbell Councilmembers Antos, Doane, Larson, Yost Absent: None I Also present: Mr. Bahorski, City Manager Mr. Barrow, City Attorney Mr. Dancs, Director of Public Works/ City Engineer Mr. Vukojevic, Deputy City Engineer Ms. Arends-King, Director of Administrative Services Chief Cushman, Lifeguard Department 9-22-03 Mr. Cummins, Associate Planner Ms. Yeo, City Clerk I APPROVAL OF AGENDA Councilman Doane requested Item "P" removed from the Consent Calendar for separate consideration, and Councilman Antos requested Item "N" removed for the purpose of his abstention from voting on the item. Councilman Yost moved to table Item "X", the proposed resolution to restructure the Department of Water and Power Advisory Committee. Councilman Larson seconded the motion. Councilman Antos inquired as to the time frame to table that matter. The response of Councilman Yost was at least until a completed application is submitted and until someone provides some evidence as to why the Committee should be reconvened inasmuch as the application is not complete at this point, his understanding is that the DWP property was purchased and the owners now want to change the use of that property, yet a legislative decision was previously made as to what was proposed for the property which is well known. Councilman Antos clarified that this item is consideration of restructuring the membership of the Department of Water and Power Advisory Committee. AYES: NOES: Antos, Larson, Yost Campbell, Doane Motion carried I Larson moved, second by Doane, to approve the order of the agenda as revised. AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried I ANNOUNCEMENTS Mayor Campbell mentioned that the City recently repaved a portion of Seal Beach Boulevard from St. Cloud to the on-ramp of the 405 Freeway, to that a number of people were inconvenienced, yet the work was basically done during evening hours in order to impact as few people as possible, said that intersection carries sixty thousand people per day and because of the nature of the area there is no way around it except the long way via the freeway to Valley View or to Katella. To questions as to why the Boulevard was being repaved when local streets are in need, Mayor Campbell explained that they were federal funds for specific major streets and if the project is not done the money is lost, those monies can not be diverted to pave local streets. Mayor Campoell also referred to comments at the end of the Redevelopment Agency meeting that this Council implemented the Agency, it did not, it was implemented some thirty years ago, and the City would not disband the Agency because the properties would need to be sold back the bonds, those properties consist of the Police Station, the City Yard, the Mary Wilson Library, the Old Town pump station, and the greenbelt. PRESENTATION - SEAL BEACH INTERNATIONAL FRIENDSHIP ASSOCIATION Ms. Katie Montgomery, President of the Seal Beach International Friendship Association, displayed a plaque received by their organization on behalf of the City of Seal Beach presented at the 2003 awards program of the National United States/Mexico Sister City Association held in 9-22-03 Palmdale, California. Ms. Montgomery read the plaque inscription, 'presented for outstanding educational involvement to the City of Seal Beach and appreciation for outstanding leadership and service to the Sister City program,' adding that it is the City that is being recognized for its outstanding contribution to the Seal Beach Sister City, Todos Santos. Ms. Montgomery noted that the Sister City Program was initiated in 1956 by President Eisenhower as a people to people program designed to foster affiliation between cities, counties, and states of the United States with other countries with the hope that such personal relationships would lessen the chance of future world conflicts, a means to encourage deeper cross cultural understanding and worldwide cooperation towards sustainable economic and community development, at present there are over two thousand such affiliations that work closely with their city government. Ms. Montgomery explained that the local Sister City program was started in 1986 by a group of local citizens, the purpose of the organization is to promote international friendship, mutual understanding, and cultural exchange, it is non-profit and non-political, monies are generated by membership dues, fund raising events, donations from individuals and other organizations, in 1990 certain City officials traveled to the rural Baja California town of Todos Santos to finalize the Sister Cityhood Proclamation, in 1996 May 19th through May 25th was proclaimed "Todos Santos Week" other than that there has been little City involvement in the program. She explained that the Friendship Association supported Todos Santos in 1992 in four areas, the Simon Bolivar rural school with one teacher and thirty-six students covering six grades, a special education school for the handicapped, the families of Indian farm laborers that live in cardboard shacks, the students of Los Alamitos High School also correspond with students in Todos Santos, in 1992 donations from Association funds and individuals furnished school supplies, Spanish books, clothing, etc., monies from private sources provided two new vans for student transportation, a television with a VCR to show educational videos, a generator to provide power for the television as the school has no electricity, the special education school received crutches, wheelchairs, walkers, an air conditioning system, their own television and VCR, and hundreds of personal care packages were donated to the Indian farming families. Ms. Montgomery said it is hoped that with this presentation the Council will recognize the Friendship Association for a job well done as has been recognized by the National Sister City award, and an endorsement of renewed support and awareness of the importance of working together to further the education and enrich the lives of the children and adults of Todos Santos, the Friendship Association and Sister City affiliation are an asset to the City without cost to the City, gains considerable good will with this recognition, yet the continued support of the City for the worthwhile programs is needed, and extended an invitation to all to join the Association at their monthly meetings. Mayor Campbell accepted the plaque with appreciation on behalf of the City. PROCLAMATIONS Mayor Campbell read in full the proclamation of October 5th through October 11th as "Fire Prevention Week" which was accepted by Chief Mike Burnett on behalf of the Orange County Fire Authority. Doane moved, second by Yost, to so proclaim. I I I 9-22-03 AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried I September 28th, 2003 was proclaimed as "Race For The Cure Day" and the Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Foundation commended for its efforts to enhance breast cancer awareness and prevention. Mayor Campbell encouraged participation in the Race. Doane moved, second by Yost, to so proclaim. AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried Doane moved, second by Antos, to proclaim October 6th through the lOth as "Lawsuit Abuse Awareness Week." AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried Yost moved, second by Antos, to proclaim September 26th, 2003 as "Development Disabilities Day." AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried I PUBLIC COMMENTS Mayor Campbell reminded that Item "X", the Department of Water and Power Advisory Committee item, was tabled, not subject of discussion at this meeting, and advised that persons wishing to speak to agenda items that are not under public hearing should do so during the Public Comment period. Mr. Milt Stein, thirty-four year Bridgeport resident, said he can remember that when the Oakwood Apartments were being discussed it was targeted that they would take up all of the police and fire protection services, the traffic would be terrible, etc., there was a group strongly against Oakwood, yet when the Mayor announced having obtained an $100,000 payment from the developer the problems seemed to disappear, Oakwood Apartments have now been there for a long time and to his knowledge has not caused the problems that were predicted. Mr. Stein said he was also present when the Department of Water and Power property was discussed some years back, an architectural firm rolled out paper, provided those present with crayons, most participants being from the no growth group, who were asked to put down a concept for the property, at that time there was a developer interested in a low rise resort hotel on the nine and a half acres, that would have been an asset to the City financially from the standpoint of the benefits from the room tax and sales tax, however the no growth group had their say, that is where the seventy/thirty ratio came from, seventy percent for open space, thirty percent for the hotel, and required to pay for the parkland, he stopped attending the meetings, the Hilton hotel group went to Huntington Beach to build their facility, and now there is another potential use for the property. Mr. Stein offered that whenever the City has an opportunity to increase its income there is a small group of no growth or 'not in my backyard' persons that bring their views to the Council, so the citizens end up with high utility taxes and without an income adequate to take care of the needs of the City. Ms. Geri West, Electric Avenue, thirty-five year resident, said she felt that many in Seal Beach are happy that in 1970 a group of people stopped the building of duplexes down the Pacific Electric right-of-way and now there is a wonderful greenbelt, she does not believe that anyone would say this would have been a better place with duplexes. I 9-22-03 Ms. West expressed appreciation for tabling Item "X". With regard to the Ocean Place application, Ms. West stated that twenty years ago many meetings were held by the citizens of Seal Beach as to what to do with the Department of Water and Power property, there was volumes of public input during many hours of public hearings before the Specific Plan Advisory Committee, the Planning Commission, and the Council, those public hearings cost thousands of dollars of Seal Beach tax payers money and hundreds of unpaid hours of citizen time attending meetings relating to that piece of property, after all of the time and money the decision was made that the property would be zoned for seventy percent open space and thirty percent development. She said after all of that the people are being confronted with a situation of which they are told that because a local group of people have asked, the zoning should be changed so that they may build single family homes on the entire property, why is the City even considering this, the proposal comes from some long time members of this community who have never done anything at all for the community except to exploit it for their own profit, if the Council would like examples of these individuals past exploitations they can be provided and documented, when the investors bought this property they knew what the zoning was, if they did not know that then they have more problems than they can be helped with, they have nerve to waste the time of the Council and taxpayer money to help them line their pockets more than they anticipated when they bought the property. Ms. Carla Watson, Catalina Avenue, said over twenty-five years ago a group of citizens known as the San Gabriel Parks Society, a slow growth group as was referenced, spoke before the Council and the Coastal Commission to save the DWP property from over-development, the arguments used to persuade the various agencies are as strong today as they were then, their mission was and is to preserve one of the last bluffs and vistas that remain on the coast for all of the people of Seal Beach and California, the rationale was that this land has historically been in the public domain, there are very few views of the ocean available in Seal Beach and very few parks, the bicycle path feeds into this property, it serves as a connection to the San Gabriel River and the ocean. She said the decision to settle for seventy percent park and thirty percent commercial was reached by consensus, at least three hands-on workshops were held by the Conservancy which hundreds of residents attended with a variety of viewpoints, some wanted all open space, some wanted all development, everyone had a chance to speak until consensus was reached, even though many wanted all open space as a compromise thirty percent commercial was chosen because it was felt that if there was a small hotel built, all of the people could still enjoy the view. This decision complimented the unwritten mission statement of this community to 'save our small town', the DWP property is like sacred ground to the residents who have lived and longed to see this parcel developed as a park, many of these residents have been active in groups that they feel have complimented and enhanced their City, from the greening group that saved the greenbelt from condos, to Seal Beach Citizens United who helped to save the Hellman property from over-development, to the Gum Grove Park Group and many others with few resources, borrowed time, and tremendous energy to preserve a special Seal Beach for generations to come. They have fought out of town developers and their front men including Bixby, Mola, Landmark, Dawson, and others, most of the developers have been from out of town, and unfortunately the people who threaten this property today are Seal Beach residents who I I I 9-22-03 obviously have not bought into the Seal Beach mission statement, small is beautiful, 'save some for everyone' is the perfect slogan for Seal Beach. Ms. Watson said she would hope that this Council will continue to preserve this land for generations to come, a view in a park for the many, not homes for the few. I Mr. Joel Davidson, 1st Street, a six year resident who said he is learning what has taken place in the past, and he has been watching the change that could happen to the DWP property, certainly he has a personal interest given his 1st Street residence yet his main interest is for the community, this is one of the last small communities on the beach, he would not like to see this turn into a Huntington Beach or Newport Beach, this land was zoned for seventy percent park for everyone to use, that needs to be kept as open space as was originally dictated, he would support keeping this land open space for all to use rather than for the few who may make a tremendous profit from its development. Mr. Singles said he is a nine year Hill resident, referred to Long Beach Airport flights of Jet Blue and Horizon, the noise in the past six months is almost out of control, the Airport hours of operation are 7:00 a.m. until 10:00 p.m. yet they have observed planes coming as late as midnight, as early as 6:00 a.m. The FAA has told him that Seal Beach is not an over- flight area, that is not true, the Long Beach Airport authorities have told him that in the event the Airport is backed up or if the airspace is crowded Seal Beach is then an over-flight area, yet the flights are coming in as low as two thousand to fifteen hundred feet, an airplane coming in at 10:30 p.m. at fifteen hundred feet is very noisy. His belief is that what is needed is to have this Council go to the Long Beach City Council to request a stop of any expansion of the Airport, talk to the FAA to stop the over-flights, the flights need to follow the traditional path, which Huntington Beach does not agree with, they can control their problem by stopping some of the Long Beach Airport growth. Mr. Singles said he has been distributing a flier and it is known that other residents have a similar problem and hopefully they too will speak to the problem. Councilman Yost suggested that a letter be prepared to the FAA ~or clarification and placed on the next or a future agenda, also notify Mr. Singles. Mayor Campbell noted that the day after Measure W was passed American Airlines added twenty-one flights at Long Beach Airport because they no longer had El Toro Airport, now that they have opened up the airspace over El Toro, the planes are coming in lower over Costa Mesa, Huntington Beach, and Seal Beach to land, over Seal Beach their landing gear is down, they have basically doubled their flights, and offered to provide the telephone numbers of the Airport Manager and Public Relations person to the City Manager, the citizens of Long Beach are angered, and a couple of weeks ago she called in that the airport has a second runway that they do not use often, and at 10:20 p.m. a 737 aircraft came in over her house at seven hundred feet. She offered also that there is a gentleman in Huntington Beach by the name of Rex Rix who has organized Huntington Beach, Seal Beach, Costa Mesa, and Long Beach to fight this. Councilman Larson reminded that pursuant to the Brown Act there are to be no responses to public comments. Councilman Doane noted too that an action was taken on a non-agenda item by asking that it be agendized. Councilman Yost said he only asked that it be included on an agenda. I I 9-22-03 Mr. Brian Kyle, lifelong Seal Beach resident, said he is one of the group that assumed the ownership of the Department of Water and Power property, and was proud to announce that it was local people who bought the property, the next bidder was the number two developer in the United States out of Dallas, Texas, the Lincoln Group. Mr. Kyle offered that in the 1970's the DWP Committee was initiated by Barbara Rountree, Gordon Shanks, and a few others, he too was there, there was a tent on the lot, different hats were put on the property, at one there was an amphitheater planned, a youth hostel, a hotel, condominiums, it was not just one thing at one time, the City actually told the Department of Water and Power that it wanted to buy the property, in the 1980's they came to terms at $3.1 million, that is how the zoning became 70/30, yet the Department of Water and Power in letter after letter said, through the City Attorney of Los Angeles, that if the land was going to be a park the City would need to compensate them. Mr. Kyle stated there is misinformation going around that the site will be all residential, that is incorrect, if that property were in Old Town it could hold one hundred forty to one hundred sixty lots, what is being proposed is thirty-nine, over three acres of open space, bike trails, walking trails, access to the project off the River into the property, roadways to the beach. A speaker made the comment that he did not want his view blocked, to that it can be said that the people on Band C rows in Surfside do not want A row and the people who live on Ocean wish the Gold Coast was not there, but for the good of everyone a project is going to be on that property that will be income producing. Mr. Kyle said the plan that is being put together is called the common sense plan, there is an environmental evaluation, none of the water from the project would flow into the bay or the river, the proposal is only thirty-nine homes, three acres of open space, trails, and fiscally what this City needs which is $1.2 to $1.4 million per year. Mr. Kyle noted that he has had three Riverbeach residents and three Ocean Avenue residents come to his home to inquire if rumors were true, they were not, one person went so far as to say that if a park is developed at the end of the property it will be nothing more than a homeless and transient park, and he knows that because he lives next to the property. He suggested that the Committee be reinstated to bring the community together to find out what the plan is about, but do not just close the door, especially in a city that needs fiscal responsibility. Dr. David Rosenman, Seal Beach, stated that he is an emeritus director of the Laguna Greenbelt and consultant to the Laguna Canyon Foundation, said he would like to share a somewhat different vision borne out by some experience in Laguna Beach before there is too much worry about what might happen. He said all of the land on both sides of Laguna Canyon Road from the freeway to EI Toro was going to be developed by the Irvine Corporation, they threatened, there was a Memorial Day march of about one hundred twenty thousand people, at that point there was a decision to negotiate, the people in Laguna by using a little bit of assessment of themselves of about $200 per year per person and with State park grants and money from freeway condemnation bought that corridor which is now the Laguna Coast Wilderness park, so it is doable, and after that happened housing prices just about doubled in Laguna Beach which in turn raised property revenues and sales tax increased, there are ways to go other than residential for this property that will not necessarily become a negative or transient park. Ms. Julie Kozner, a new Seal Beach resident, made reference to the agenda item relating to the sand dyke, I I I 9-22-03 I a number of people present are concerned about it, and said she hoped that the Council received copies of the letters she gathered from people who had a concern. Ms. Kozner said she and others attended the workshop relating to this issue, it was informative yet based upon the information presented by the City team the recommendation was that the sand dyke was only necessary from November through March, having it up from the end of September through May is felt to be detrimental to the City for several reasons, foremost is the people who are trying to earn money on rental properties on the east beach during Spring and Easter breaks and the beginning of the season because there is no ocean view or beach access, it also creates a parking problem because half the beach is closed to access. She noted that a number of signors did not include their addresses or some were from other communities but they are people who come and spend money in Seal Beach, therefore if only half of the beach is accessible for half of the year that will impact the City in a number of negative ways, these people will take their tax dollars elsewhere or jobs that may be available today may not continue to be available, that in addition to the people who live here and do not like looking at a sand wall for nine months out of the year. Ms. Kozner stated that the protection that the berm provides is appreciated, it is provided in the interest of protecting property but it is not necessary to have it up as long as it is. I Ms. Nancy Slusher, Spinnaker Way, said she has heard information from both sides of the DWP property and from the builders information it sounds good yet it was never mentioned why the change in the percentages. If it is as good for the City as has been laid out and if it is in keeping with the original plan and what the community wants, the original percentages should be maintained in a way to preserve the open spaces. Ms. Slusher stated she moved to Seal Beach seventeen years ago because Seal Beach was a small town, she wanted that kind of atmosphere, it is felt that most people want to maintain that, that and the environment are big issues, and the percentages were created with considerable time and effort. She also said that many people would like to have more information ahead of meetings even if they are advisory committees, the meetings need to be open and public. Mr. Mike Westmoreland, Riviera Drive resident of twelve years, said when he moved to his home in 1991 drop off and pick up for McGaugh was on the east side of the school and accessible from Seal Beach Boulevard, in 1995 a sidewalk was installed on the northbound side of Riviera and was designated as the drop off and pick up site, traffic on Riviera increased dramatically, rather than just the northbound side being used for drop off and pick up the southbound side is also being used and it is extremely difficult during school hours to park in front of their own house or have guests find available parking, vehicles often block their driveways. The situation is also dangerous as parents and children negotiate the traffic going from the resident side to the school side, an accident waiting to happen, also, when northbound drivers see an available space on the resident side there is unsafe turning into the residence driveway as well as speeding and competition for the parking spaces takes place, in fact his brick planters have been damaged five times by this activity and he has personally paid for the repair three times because the drivers left the scene. Mr. Westmoreland noted an article in an Orange County newspaper detailed neighborhoods in adjacent cities that border schools just as does Riviera, Mission I 9-22-03 Viejo, Newport Beach, Fountain Valley, San Clemente, and Orange have all tackled similar problems by establishing 'residents only' parking zones. Compounding the traffic is also the use of McGaugh field by Seal Beach Kids Baseball, although he fully supports the intent of the Seal Beach baseball league, both of his sons participated in the league, the problem is that they have now grown into a Pony league with an extended season, more out of town kids coming to McGaugh, and extended hours of play at night. He said at various times of the year school officials, baseball coaches and residents have met to try to come up with solutions to the parking problem however never found a successful intervention, baseball even had plastic free standing signs that they put on Riviera asking the parents going to games and practices to park elsewhere, the signs had little effect and are no longer used. Mr. Westmoreland stated that Riviera Drive has reached saturation point in congestion and parking, now that the baseball season is over McGaugh is now leasing to Pop Warner Football and soccer, the residents of Riviera now have no relief 24/7. It is now time for the Council to grant a little breathing room and some sanity restoration, this can only be done with the parking on the resident side of Riviera being designated as 'resident only' parking, and implored the Council assistance in this endeavor. Ms. Margene Walz stated that most of those along the Seal Way walkway agree with the comments of Julie Kozner that the berm be constructed the first part of November and taken down at the end of March for the same reasons she stated. Ms. Sherie Veradi, Seal Way, said she agrees with the earlier comments with regard to the sand berm, she will take the consultants literally when it is called the 'winter dyke', up in November, down in March, the residents enjoy the view as well. Mr. Jim Caviola, Seal Beach, said he had provided a recent news article titled 'Sense of Fair Play Found in Monkeys' that reports when it comes to fair play monkeys do not settle for any funny business. He made reference to a list of all of the Redevelopment Agency properties, in order to be in an Agency area it is necessary to be blighted, it is shown that the DWP property was designated as blighted because it was vacant which means that the City will receive no money from that property no matter what is developed there, any monies realized will go to the Redevelopment Agency. He complained that there are people present because of the DWP because of rumor, not because of notice, where are the plans for this alleged takeover, the Department of Water and Power is a public property, it was sold by the County, the taxpayers bought and supported that property, it is government property, now the City wants to rezone it within the Redevelopment Agency, its worth was known, that is why it was sold at the price it was, this is another example of redevelopment. He does not feel that it was fair that the Mayor told the public that to disband the Agency would require selling the Police Station, that is a scare tactic that is wrong, it is known that the Agency borrowed $9 million against the Trailer Park that originally sold for $3 million, it is also known that the option on the Zoeter site comes up in January and the tenant is going to buy that property, people do not realize Zoeter is in the Redevelopment area, that money could be used to pay the debt, right now Bridgeport and Riverbeach is being subsidized by the rest of the City because their property taxes are going into the Agency. Mr. Caviola claimed that the DWP is a scam, it is designated as blighted, the same with the Hellman property, he asked that anything that is going on with the DWP property be properly noticed to the public, and the DWP I I I 9-22-03 I site should be taken out of the Redevelopment Agency. Mr. Bob Griffith, Seal Beach, mentioned that the innuendoes, non- truths, rumors going around are unbelievable, the DWP was never County property, the site was bought from the City of Los Angeles, stop the innuendoes and rumors, if someone wants to ask questions he is available on Main Street, he is a twenty-five percent owner of the property, they are here to find out what is best for the City to go on that property. The plan for the property was a race horse designed by committee, the fiscal policy of the City was designed by special interest groups, that does not mean that ten percent of the residents should make the other ninety percent pay extra taxes, any project for this property should come with a fiscal impact report on the City, can the City afford the upkeep of its police and fire, he does not know, there needs to be a fiscal impact report and then make a common sense decision. Mr. Griffith offered that the City of Los Angeles could no longer afford to keep that property vacant, that is why they sold it, the property was advertised for sale, a developer was the other person that was the closest to buying it, after the bid of the Seal Beach group was accepted it took three years to close the property, it is going to be developed, something is going to go there, it needs to be something that is good for the City and be fiscally responsible. Mr. Griffith said while sitting in the audience he was tired of hearing all about this project, it is amazing what people know about the project that is not true, so let's not come up with decisions by applause, rather come up with real policy. At this point he does not know what is going to go on that property, is someone going to make some money on the property, yes they are, for anyone who has bought a home in Seal Beach in the last three to ten years just look at the obscene profit that has been made on that house, he would not believe that when those persons are done with their property that they will take the profit and put it into a park for Seal Beach. He also suggested that people not be called names, said he is likely going to live in Seal Beach for his life, he likes the City as it is, people refer to the DWP site as a park, it is not, it is zoned open space. Mr. Richard Whitehair, twelve year Seal Beach resident temporarily living in Huntington Beach, returning to Seal Beach in early November, a free lance photographer, provides photos to local Orange County newspapers, caters and bartends, said during the recent Sand Castle event he entered into a verbal agreement with the Chamber of Commerce to photograph and portray how the sand castle is built and to create an up to forty inch laminated print. Mr. Whitehair said on Thursday afternoon he noticed four gallons of a cream colored substance being carried into the sand castle area, he later returned to capture the sand castle at sunset and to take pictures of the tools used to make a sand castle, at that time he noticed eight to ten gallons of wood glue in a tent near the main castle, on Friday he continued to take photos of those building and marking the castle, and it occurred to him that the glue he had seen in the tent was what he had seen being sprayed on the sand for years to firm the castle. Mr. Whitehair said he then looked up the ingredients of Elmers wood glue on the internet, copies of which were provided the Council, and he was alarmed at what he found, he felt he had been mislead many times when he was told that water only was used to keep the sand. firm and rigid, on opening day of the event he picked up the large print that to be posted in front of the venue for viewing as people waited in line to enter, he again asked the builder what was used to keep the sand from collapsing and the I I 9-22-03 response was water, the Chamber Director appeared to be puzzled and surprised when informed that he had seen her carrying wood glue into the tent on a prior day, he then pointed out the materials data sheet he obtained on wood glue which in part said that it should not be released into material bodies of water, she took the report and departed, at that point he felt he had no choice but to disclose what he had discovered, that wood glue was being sprayed onto the beach, to say nothing would make him guilty, on Saturday evening he contacted the Sun newspaper, the Police Chief, the Council and called the City Manager, Visitors Bureau and Mayor of Huntington Beach, to date none of those he contacted had been aware that anything other than sand and water was being used on sand castles, what he hopes to accomplish is to inform officials and the general public as to what is being put on the beach, disclose potential hazards, and inform the volunteers as to what is being used. Mr. Charles Castagna, Riviera Drive resident of forty-five years, original homeowner, said when the homes were built there was a wonderful school across the street, having been a teacher and coach for many years he liked the school atmosphere, and he watched the school grow. His recollection is that the developer allowed that portion of the field to be used as a recreational area for the community of Seal Beach, when the School District was mandated to join a district they chose Los Alamitos and the school property was given to Los Alamitos, his belief is that the intent was that the school and about one third of the property behind the school would be a playground for the children of the school, and for the remainder of the property he has never seen an elementary school that had flood lights and bleachers as part of the playground, again, his belief is that that area was to be a recreational area for the community but it was included with the merger with Los Alamitos School District, therefore it is Los Alamitos that determines what teams can come to Seal Beach to play their games and along with that is the parents and friends that park on Riviera Drive, it has now grown from a community playground, where the families and children that played there were known, to a stadium setting, which takes up all of the parking. Mr. Castagna suggested that there should be a study as to whether that area of the playground should be part of the Los Alamitos School District. He mentioned that he too has replaced his driveway and planters about three times, and said he strongly supports finding an answer to the parking problem for those who live on Riviera Drive. Ms. Gwen Forsythe, Riviera Drive, said unless one lives on Riviera Drive they do not know the full impact, the residents have been accused of being anti-baseball and that they want the school all to themselves, that is far from the truth. Typically on a daily basis when their garage is opened in the morning there is a car parked in her driveway, upon returning home in the afternoon and if it is a time when children are getting out of school there is someone parked in her driveway, and when her husband returns home in the evening he can no longer park in front of their home and has to park in the Seal Beach Boulevard lot. The Riviera residents have put up with Kids Baseball for many years, the school, the sports camps in the summer, Pop Warner football, they realize that there will be those impacts just because they live across from the school and that is alright, however Kids Baseball has gone to a Pony League, regional teams that bring in people who do not live here and have a terrific impact on the neighborhood where residents can not get near their homes for six to nine months of the year, no guests, no special I I I 9-22-03 I occasions because of the parking problem, it has gotten to the point of resenting Kids Baseball as they have not been good neighbors at this point, they do not care about the impact to the neighborhood, when the sandwich board signs were put up the baseball people knocked them down and put them in the residents yards, the regional baseball comes in on Saturdays about 7:00 a.m. and leave about 11:00 p.m., during weekdays after school they start about 2:30 p.m. and the lights go.off about 11:00 p.m., and the noise is very loud. Ms. Forsythe emphasized that access to the homes is needed, she would not support the traffic study suggested in the staff report as she would not like to see the money spent, the problem has been identified and there is an easy solution, the precedent has been set with the resident parking stickers in Old Town, and she could name five or six communities where there are residences that border schools that are being allowed permits to park in front of their homes. She spoke favorably of a meeting between the City and the School District because of the impacts of noise and lighting, the traffic is under City jurisdiction. She also mentioned the issue of safety, Riviera is a narrow street, and suggested envisioning four SUV's lined up, two parked on either side and two traversing as they go down the street, the thought is that with resident parking there will be open parking spaces, it would be good physically and visually to open the street up somewhat, and invited the Council to observe the area during the peak of baseball season to see what the residents are dealing with, the needed assistance with this problem is a consensus of the street. I Mr. Bob HOffman, Catalina Avenue, expressed appreciation to his neighbor for informing him as to what is going on with the Department of Water and Power parcel, he in fact worked for the Department in the early 1980's and should someone have called about weeds or trash on the property they likely could have spoken to him, he has also worked fifteen years as a redevelopment and real estate manager for the City of Santa Ana, redevelopment may not be acceptable to some of those present however for some communities it is appropriate, Santa Ana would be near the top of that list, he has had a career of thirty-two years in public sector real estate, acted as a private consultant for a number of communities and has worked for a number of cities as well. Mr. Hoffman said there is one maxim in their business which is the one-third, two-third maxim, everywhere you go it will be found that residential generates about one-third of a city's income and requires two-thirds of city services, for commercial and industrial properties the converse is true, generate about two-thirds of the income and requires about one-third of city services, that is why one will see cities fight to capture big box retailers and car dealers, those that generate considerable sales tax, and you do not find communities fighting over housing developments, that because there is no money in housing, if there was communities would be fighting for their fair share of housing. Mr. Hoffman indicated his support of the suggestion of the second property owner who spoke of formation of a fiscal impact committee, the first fiscal impact that should be looked at is that of the developer, $10 per square foot was paid for this property, the citizens of the community are aware of the houses that are being purchased for $600,000 and then torn down to be rebuilt, that tells him that people are willing to pay $100 per square foot for residential property in Seal Beach. If the purchasers develop the thirty-nine residential lots as they propose and sell those lots for $300,000 per lot they will triple their I 9-22-03 investment, in one day they will make as much money as they promise the City will make in a decade, his feeling is that much can be learned by looking at the fiscal impact of this development. Mr. Hoffman stated that this is a precious piece of property, he can not think of another parcel like this anywhere from the Palos Verdes Peninsula to the edge of Corona del Mar, a parcel this large, this kind of exposure, its proximity to the beach, to him this property is more prime than the Bolsa Chica highlands. He mentioned also that his daily commute takes him through Long Beach, by Bluff Park, he observes the grassy area, the ocean, kite flying, the kinds of uses that are found to be slightly different than those found on the sand of a beach, that kind of area is much more accessible to the elderly than is the beach, the DWP site is a precious parcel of property, and the decision, whether it breaks faith with the Council that previously promised that this would be primarily open space, is important and will be lived with for generations, if these developers merely develop the thirty percent of the property that was contemplated to be developed initially, they can double their money, that would be a good day and should be sufficient for them. Ms. Mitzi Morton, Seal Beach, made reference to the staff report which states that Mr. Shanks, now a member of the Planning Commission, is no longer part of the San Gabriel Parks Society and therefore the Society no longer exists, yet in July of 2002 Mr. Shanks called her knowing that she had been part of the original group and asked that she replace him, the appointment to the San Gabriel Park Society was ratified by the Council, therefore how can the City say the Society is disbanded when her appointment was ratified and she has not been notified of the change, to which she requested clarification in that a number of people at this meeting were also part of the Park Society. I I Mr. Riley Forsythe, noted that having lived on Riviera Drive for twenty-one years there has now been a sharp increase in evening activities at the school yard, they were aware of activities at the school when they purchased their home, for twenty years activities remained fairly constant, both of his children attended McGaugh, both participated in Kids Baseball, and at night games were held twice a week during baseball season, Calvary Chapel met at McGaugh for a time and for a few hours on Sunday morning parking was basically impossible, most of those activities were easily tolerated and they were used to it. Mr. Forsythe said when Kids Baseball added the Pony League to its name the changes were immediate, this past year night games went from two nights to six nights a week, cars took up every available space on Riviera in the evenings, loud cheering, up to and past 10:00 p.m. the field lights flooding the adjacent homes with daylight, and a street full of trash for the residents to deal with the next morning. He said the thought of the residents was that there would be some relief at the end of the season yet there were then regional playoffs, that while the City was attempting to resurface the street, and then new this year came pop Warner football practices. Mr. Forsythe offered that permit parking on the residential side will not resolve the issues of noise, trash, and lights, those will need to be addressed with the School District, but it will help with the nightly congestion on Riviera, and if the residents and guests do not use the parking spots it will at least make their narrow street a bit safer for two cars to pass and for the children crossing back and forth, it will force the baseball people to use the ample parking on the McGaugh lot and walk the short distance to the field instead I 9-22-03 I of forcing the residents to park in the McGaugh lots and walk a longer distance to their home. Mr. Forsythe requested assistance to resolve this problem. Ms. Jane McCloud, Balboa Drive, co-Chair of the Gum Grove Park Nature Park Group, said the Group has reviewed the proposed location for the Educational Center on the Hellman property, originally they had supported the Option B location until it was known that there were concerns of nearby residents, primarily with security. Ms. McCloud stated the Group reached consensus to support Option C at their September 8th meeting. She noted that the Gum Grove Nature Park Group originally wanted the Educational Center in the Park to reflect the history of this area and become a permanent part of the Nature park, noted also that Option C will provide a spectacular view, standing at the location one can see forever and when the wetlands are restored it will be a wonderful view point for everyone who visits the area, Option C is one of the two sites that are preferred by the Native Americans, the Group agrees that site A was too close to Seal Beach Boulevard, and Option D, between two homes, was not a good location, Option C also rules out the concerns that had been brought to the attention of the Council. With regard to the DWP property, Mr. John O'Neil, Clipper Way, noted that there has been debate and public input on this issue for years, that is how the seventy/thirty compromise plan was reached, if he understood correctly the proposal would provide only three acres of open space on the approximate ten acre site, most people would like to see the entire parcel as open space yet are realistic that with all of the input it is seventy/thirty which is the zoning. Mr. O'Neil noted the mention of the Lincoln Group as the number two bidder, as a City possibly they would be better and do what they are supposed to do. Ms. Wendy Rothman, Seal Beach, said to the DWP project applicants that the people present and those at home are friends, neighbors, and customers, and urged that they rethink any plan that blocks the view of any of them, this view, enjoyed by all, is simply not for sale. I I Mr. Pat Larkin, representative of John Laing Homes and the Hellman property project Heron Pointe, noted that they have been before the Recreation and Parks Commission twice with regard to locations for the Education Center, the Planning Commission did not see fit to approve the location, the project group has been working with the Native Americans during the past couple months to look at alternative locations as well as with City staff and taking into consideration the comments that have come forth before the Council and the Recreation Commission, location B remains the preferred location by the Native Americans, location C is likewise acceptable, it is felt that either location B or C fulfills the needs that the parties have indicated, for the Native Americans that would be that they be close to the natural setting, and with C being close to the wetlands when they are restored that would be an incredible setting. Mr. Larkin mentioned the concerns expressed with regard to security issues with the Gum Grove Park location, they have gone before the Coastal Commission and have been able to work out constructing a fence with a gate across the Gum Grove Park extension, it would basically be a split rail type fence, it may not keep everyone out but it can be closed between dusk and dawn, similar to the gate on the other end, and he was pleased to see some of the residents attend the last Recreation Commission hearing who had voiced their concerns with location B and actually supported location C, there will also be a spur trail tie-in for location C, 9-22-03 that will come off of the Gum Grove Park trail and through the subdivision, will provide adequate access, there is a parking lot at Gum Grove as well which is somewhat difficult to control. Mr. Larkin reiterated that in his speaking with the Native Americans location B is the preferred site yet location C is acceptable as well. Mr. Terry Kreiger said as a Crestview Avenue resident the cultural center turned into a full time job, the initial location and subsequent discussions required him to attend a number of Recreation Commission meetings, Council meetings, and a full day in front of the Coastal Commission only to have them tune him out the entire time that he was speaking, and expressed appreciation to the Council for being attentive to the comments of the public. With reference to the comments of Mr. Larkin, Mr. Kreiger offered that the residents do not have objection to location C, there are no locations D or A on the agenda, only locations C and B, and urged that there be no reconsideration of the location that was previously rejected by the Council. Mr. Kreiger mentioned that a few days ago he saw a drawing of a split rail fence that was an attachment to the Recreation Commission staff report yet not distributed to the public, there is no split rail fence on this agenda or that has had public comment or input from the people who are impacted by that fence, and when the Council takes action to support location C, as it should, that it be made clear that the Council is not approving things that have not been submitted for proper public comment and input that may severely impact the Crestview Avenue homes, a split rail fence is not a security fence, the fence off of Avalon is a chainlink fence with a gate, the Commission said that an identical access block could be located at the other side of Gum Grove Park, a split rail fence is useless. Mr. Kreiger noted a flier previously distributed to the neighborhood with regard to vandalism to the homes that back Gum Grove Park and that the Crestview residents should be on the lookout. Mr. Kreiger again said when the Council approves location C that no fencing be approved, that it be sent back to staff for a public hearing on the proper type of fence and if need be, sent back to the Coastal Commission. I I Mr. Anthony Morales, most likely descendant designated by the State Native American Heritage Commission, said he has been assigned to the Hellman project, and represents the Gabrieleno/Tongva from San Gabriel. Mr. Morales recalled addressing the Council about a month ago expressing their preference for location B, there were concerns expressed and the Council requested that those concerns be addressed to the Coastal Commission which he did the following morning, they were able to negotiate with the Commission an understanding that they would treat the situation according to the guidelines of the existing Gum Grove Park that would allow some fencing, signage, and the security issues would be addressed by the fencing. Mr. Morales said he believes that the concerns have been addressed, the Commission is willing to comply with the concern relating to security issues. Mr. Morales again expressed support for location B. Mr. Robert Dormae, Tribal Chair for the Gabrielle/Tongva Indians of California, consultant and designated monitor for the Hellman project, noted that locations A through D have been discussed, location C seems to be the last location to be considered for them, explained that this educational area was meant for the good of the community, he believes that it was misunderstood, his feeling is that there were misconceptions that the educational area was the meditation area, the meditation area however has already been designated as ORA I 9-22-03 I 264 as a preserved area in perpetuity for their ancestors. The interpretative area was for the community, there are misunderstandings as to how many ceremonies and functions would be held at that facility, this would be available three hundrea sixty-five days a year for the children and community. His belief is that the Indians have been pushed back as far as was wanted, as a citizen, and State and federal registered Indian he would suggest that they just be allowed to have a place for a general interpretative area without getting into technicalities, they have worked so hard for this beautiful place for the community and the Indians at large and in turn thanked the Council. Mr. Dormae agreed that location C would be an acceptable location, as previously stated they had been in total agreement with location B, a perfect place for an interpretative area, yet because of the community concerns and misunderstandings on the part of everyone, offered support for location C without any hard feelings, life is too short. I Mr. Chi Kredell, Seal Beach, mentioned that it had been said that the taxes from the Department of Water and Power site would go to the City which is not true, they will go to the Redevelopment Agency. Mr. Kredell said he does not want the contaminated sand transported to the east beach, also, is the City liable for the sand or is the Chamber and Business Association, if it needs to be cleaned up then who is going to pay for it? Another issue, at one point Moffatt & Nichol mentioned that they may pick up the sand from the west side of the groin, that is where the silt congregates, the granules are supposed to be .04 something, it must be a larger granule than is found on the west beach, a few years ago they scraped the beach around 5th and 6th streets and it was said the granules were almost the size of those on the east beach so it could be transported, it was said also that the most incompatible was against the groin and the pier. He asked that only larger granule sand be placed on the east beach. Mr. Kredell inquired as why the City does not pursue proposition 28 monies to purchase the DWP site, his belief is that Long Beach is trying to do the same thing to acquire the Bixby land behind the Market Place. Mr. Kredell mentioned having been on the Council years back when the San Gabriel River Parks Society was formed and the DWP site discussed. He recalled having spoken recently to the proposed desalinization plant in Long Beach, a letter was to be sent to the Coastal Commission, five cities rejected it, the Commission as well, this is the only city that is going to have a desalting plant that is going to pollute the ocean. Ms. Karla Hanzlik, said she was born in Seal Beach, has lived in Seal Beach for over forty-five years, 17th Street for twenty-nine years, wished to make comments relating to the sand berm. She said she believed the engineering report was incorrect with regard to where flood water flows, when there is flooding in the east end of town 17th Street gets water, if water reaches Seal Way it goes down Ocean, goes downhill to 15th, 16th and 17th streets as they are lower than the beach, her recollection is that in twenty-nine years it has happened five times, her residence has been flooded twice, some neighbors as much as five times, the most recent being in 1997, at that time the berm was not up as yet and there was an early storm, the berm protection was meant for all residents, not just those on Seal Way, and asked that consideration of the decision be given to she and her neighbors. Ms. Celeste Keith, Seal Way, resident since 1959, made reference to the meeting that was held about a month ago, there was an indicated agreement between the attendees I 9-22-03 to have the berm up from November through March, in response to the prior speaker, if there should be a flooding incident possibly the entry to her street could be sandbagged, because for the Seal Way residents to be barred from the ocean view for eight months of the year is not fair. Mr. Randall Flint, 17th Street, said there seems to be a perception that this is only a Seal Way issue yet it is something that impacts many residents far beyond Seal Way, particularly those that live in the low lying areas north of the greenbelt on the easterly side of town, the residents of that area feel the berm is as much of a flood protection for them as it is for those who live along Seal Way, when there is flooding in their part of town, which is a regular event, he could not think of a time in the almost thirty years that he has lived on 17th Street that ocean water has not been at least part of the problem, granted there is also flooding from rain, it is a composite kind of issue, and increases the flooding in parts of Old Town which he is told is somewhere between seven to nine feet lower than the residents along Seal Way. Mr. Flint said most of the residents of the low lying area north of the greenbelt were not aware of the meeting that was held basically for the residents of Seal Way, therefore had no input or impact on the staff report, if one actually looks at the engineering report, which he did, it says that ocean water does not flow inland of Ocean Avenue to flood intersections or roadways, clearly that is not the case, anyone that was here during the floods knows that some of the streets like Ocean Avenue and to a lesser extent even 12th through 14th streets turn into rivers of water and sand and heads for the greenbelt and the low lying areas, the staff and engineering reports talk about, and rightly so, that the berm is an issue of managing risk, that is right but there are tradeoffs, but why is the risk of Seal Way only taken into account and not the risk of flooding along other parts of town, he has observed two feet of sea water on a bright sunny day in front of his house, that water came from somewhere and it causes damage. Mr. Flint said he did not want to think that he was the only one in this part of town that felt this way so he took an informal, unscientific poll of twenty-four different residents of the 200 block of just 17th Street, two of the people had no opinion on the subject, two felt that the berm should not go up at all, one resident felt that the berm should be put up on a schedule to accommodate the people on Seal Way, yet nineteen residents felt that the berm provided flood protection for their property and that the berm should not be delayed for the reason of accommodating views or any other reason, and even though he did not ask the question, fourteen different people volunteered that they had actually been flooded by sea water and had damage to their property. Mr. Flint said they are merely asking that consideration for the berm should be on the best engineering advice and full risk assessment of all of the risks that might be there. I I Ms. Joyce Parque, Seal Beach, provided the Council with pictures of grass growing in the streets, next week she will have pictures of the potholes, nothing is being done in Old Town, the residents pay their taxes, highest revenue in the City is the utility tax, the $1.5 million per year from the DWP property will not come to the City rather the Redevelopment Agency, will go to pay the Agency debt, pay rent subsidies, and for free money, the City will get just $10,000, this is a bad program, the City was asked to disband the Agency a year ago. A speaker said that the City will spend two-thirds of its money if residential is built in the Redevelopment Agency, the City takes care of the property for I 9-22-03 I public safety, the fire department, etc. A consultant said that the City could disband the Agency and for ten years receive the money, any money from the DWP development should go to disband the Redevelopment Agency, also, the Agency can issue bonds and the taxpayers do not get to vote on that. Ms. parque referred to properties in College Park East, their taxes go to the schools, if a house sold for $600,000 the property taxes would be $6,180 per year, the City would get $912, the County gets $364, the schools get $4,801, in Bridgeport there was a resale for $600,000, with the Agency base the City receives $20, the Agency receives $5,880, if one lives in College Park East they are subsidizing the Agency for free money for people that are poor, the Redevelopment Agency paid the school district $45,000, the remaining residents paid $15 million, this is a flawed program that make some people feel good to give away taxpayer money. Ms. parque suggested that the Christmas lights should go back into the trees on Main Street rather than the star decorations that were hung last year, the street was dark, and some people on Main Street want to know where the lights are because they paid for them. Ms. Melanie Wilbur, new resident, said one of the reasons she moved to Riverbeach was that the DWP property would remain open space and have the opportunity to walk to the beach, she does not believe the statement that that would remain open for the public because it will be locked up so that the public can no longer use the area, with the noise from the Marina Center the people do not need more homes in front of their residences, and more facts should be known about this proposed development. Mr. Don Rudnick, resident of First Street and Marina Drive, expressed concern with the proposed development of the Department of Water and Power property, mentioned that no one has brought up the issue of parking, what are the existing residents going to do for parking with the development of the DWP. Mr. Joe Ribal, Seal Way, said he was sorry there was not broader coverage of the meeting that was held on August 26th, however it may not have mattered because the Public Works Department took all of the time to discuss the berm, which is an important issue specifically for those who reside on Seal Way and anyone having concern about safety factors, however there were about twenty-four different topics that people were going to be asked to evaluate in terms of further discussion that relate to issues of safety and concern for property. Mr. Ribal said he had a number of questions dealing with the engineering report and he would presume that Councilman Antos may have an opportunity to explore some of those issues. For those who support the changes with regard to the berm he said he took the liberty of duplicating the Public Works Department plan for constructing and taking down the berm, as was stated previously he felt there were some major inaccuracies in terms of sand quality, the Coastal Commission has insisted on a number of points during prior evaluations of plans of the City and that the kind of sand used for the berm have the qualities of compatibility, that is one of the problems that has occurred in that the City has imported clay from a river bottom that in many respects has degregated the quality of the beach, to that he showed a photo of an area in front of the berm where there is no sand, it has all washed away, likely because the City has failed to meet Coastal Commission requirements, another photo that was said to show the clay being stirred up by the sea, if blow sand is placed on that beach it will not only destroy the sand that is there appropriately but create grave year-round problems, the City Council has destroyed this beach. One will not see many open windows on the Gold Coast because of the blow sand and they I I 9-22-03 are set back two hundred feet. Mr. Ribal showed another set of photos to show what happens in a major storm when protection is not provided, and made reference to a comment relating to timing with some degree of concern for the practical engineering aspects, again, said he was making available some of the papers and the Councilman can carry forward with this area of discussion. Ms. Reva Olson, Seal Beach, said in the 1970's there was a tax revolt, people voted that taxes would be voted on, stated that Redevelopment Agency tax increment does not go into the City's General Fund for services, it goes to the Agency to subsidize housing for people who are making $60,000 a year. Ms. Olson spoke for disbanding the Redevelopment Agency, there was a consultant and qualified people in this town that say it can be done, the people are paying the highest utility tax in the State, someone is going to sue the City and the money will need to be given back, also, the sanitation charges have gone up, the people will need to pay half of the sidewalk repair if they want them fixed, there has been very little work done in Old Town since 1959, the City takes care of all of the people who go to the beach but the streets do not get fixed. There being no further comments, Mayor Campbell declared Public Comments to be closed. I It was the order of the Chair, with consent of the Council, to declare a recess at 9:19 p.m. The Council reconvened at 9:35 p.m. with Mayor Campbell calling the meeting to order. CONSENT CALENDAR - ITEMS "F" thru "U" Larson moved, second by Yost, to approve the recommended action for the items on the Consent Calendar as presented, except for Items "N" and "P", removed for separate consideration. I F. Approved the waiver of reading in full of all ordinances and resolutions and that consent to the waiver of reading shall be deemed to be given by all Councilmembers after the reading of the title unless specific request is made at that time for the reading of such ordinance or resolution. G. Approved regular demands numbered 43278 through 43630 in the amount of $1,675,922.84, ADP payroll demands numbered 5537266 through 5537389, 5789386 through 5789492 in the amount of $513,008,31, and authorized warrants to be drawn on the Treasury for same. H. Received and filed the Monthly Investment Report for August, 2003. I. Adopted Resolution Number 5163 entitled "A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH AUTHORIZING INVESTMENT OF MONIES IN THE LOCAL AGENCY INVESTMENT FUND AND SUPERSEDING RESOLUTION NUMBER 5098. By unanimous consent, full reading of Resolution Number 5163 was waived. I J. Denied the claim for damages of Realyn Marie Cloutier Zaldivar (Estate of Ruben Zaldivar). K. Approved the minutes of the regular adjourned and regular meetings of August 25, 2003. L. I M. 9-22-03 Approved contract modification Option 1 which provides a flexible date schedule for Building Inspection and Plan Check services with Charles Abbott Association, Inc. and authorized the City Manager to execute the contract upon acceptance as to form by the City Attorney. Adopted Resolution Number 5164 entitled "A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH, CALIFORNIA, AUTHORIZING A BUDGET AMENDMENT, NO. 04-11, FOR RENTAL, LEASE AND MAINTENANCE OF PIER HOLIDAY DECORATIONS." By unanimous consent, full reading of Resolution Number 5164 was waived. O. Adopted Resolution Number 5165 entitled 'A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH DECLARING WORK TO BE COMPLETED AS TO PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS FOR PROJECT #50153 THE ANNUAL STREET SEAL PROGRAM PROJECT FY 02/03, ENTERED INTO BETWEEN DOUG MARTIN CONTRACTING COMPANY, INC. AND THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH." By unanimous consent, full reading of Resolution Number 5165 was waived. Q. I Adopted Resolution Number 5166 entitled "A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH, CALIFORNIA, AUTHORIZING A BUDGET AMENDMENT, NO. 04-10, FOR THE PURCHASE OF EMERGENCY RESPONSE EQUIPMENT THROUGH THE STATE DOMESTIC PREPAREDNESS PROGRAM." By unanimous consent, full reading of Resolution Number 5166 was waived. R. Approved the terms of the Amendment to the Joint Agreement for the Implementation and Operation of the Orange County 800 MHz Countywide Coordinated Communications System, and adopted Resolution Number 5167 entitled "A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH, CALIFORNIA, AUTHORIZING A BUDGET AMENDMENT, NO. 04-08, FOR THE INCREASE IN THE CITY's SHARE OF THE 800 MHz BACKBONE COST SHARING FEES." By unanimous consent, full reading of Resolution Number 5167 was waived. S. I T. Approved the amended Field Use and Maintenance Agreement between the City and the American Youth Soccer Organization, Region 159, for the use of Arbor Park for a term of five years (deletion of Section 17, Attorney Fees, from the originally approved Agreement). Approved the plans and specifications for the pier Structural Repair, Project Number 50146 and authorized staff to commence the bidding process. U. Adopted Resolution Number 5168 entitled "A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH, CALIFORNIA, STATING ITS INTENTION TO APPROVE AN AMENDMENT TO CONTRACT BETWEEN THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC EMPLOYEES' RETIREMENT 9-22-03 SYSTEM AND THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH" (3% at 50 for Ocean Beach Lifeguards) and Approved the introduction and first reading of Ordinance Number 1505 entitled "AN ORDINANCE OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH, CALIFORNIA, AUTHORIZING AN AMENDMENT TO THE CONTRACT BETWEEN THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH AND THE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION OF THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC EMPLOYEES' RETIREMENT SYSTEM. " By unanimous consent, full reading of Resolution Number 5168 and Ordinance 1505 was waived. I AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried ITEMS REMOVED FROM THE CONSENT CALENDAR ITEM "N" - ORANGE COUNTY TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY - MASTER FUNDING AGREEMENT - AMENDMENT NO.7 Councilman Antos noted again that he would need to abstain from voting on this item. Yost moved, second by Larson, to approve Amendment No. 7 to the Orange County Master Funding Agreement C95-991 between the Orange County Transportation Authority and the City of Seal Beach. AYES: NOES: ABSTAIN: Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Antos Motion carried I ITEM "P" - RESIGNATION - RECREATION and PARKS COMMISSION Councilman Doane commended Mr. Andy Rohman for his services on the Recreation and Parks Commission since his appointment in June of 2000. Councilman Doane mentioned that he did not have anyone in mind to assume the District Five Commission seat, and invited anyone having interest in serving on the Recreation and Parks Commission to give him a call. Doane moved, second by Yost, to accept the resignation of Mr. Andy Rohman from the Recreation and Parks Commission and declare the position vacant. AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried WINTER SAND DIKE (BERMI The Director of Public Works introduced Mr. Chris Weber of Moffatt & Nichol Engineers who would be making a brief presentation regarding the winter Sand Dike Assessment Report. Mr. Webb stated that he is a coastal planner with Moffatt & Nichol Engineers, has had the opportunity to work with the City for a number of years on this and other issues, the intent is to make a brief presentation of some information about the dike so that the issue can be understood as well as possible and make decisions accordingly. I * The dike is a feature that has been along the Seal Beach coastline for many years, the purpose is to provide temporary protection to the immediate development behind the shoreline for severe winter storms, it succeeds in that, many have seen the affect of flooding when the dike was not in place I I I 9-22-03 and the same and worse conditions with the dike in place, it does provide protection; * the dike has the benefit of being soft protection, which means not a hard structure that is put up permanently, it is a soft sacrificial thing that can absorb wave energy, gets partially torn apart or damaged, the sand moves away from the dike and goes towards west beach, and the City has to repair it periodically if a severe storm hits, if no severe storm it does not need to be repaired; * the dike has been put in place for a long time, long enough that there was a study done twenty years ago that addressed whether it could be improved or optimized, that study suggested a number of things, that it be raised relatively high, be long, and be put in place for an extended period of time; * the focus is the east beach, the dike constructed from the Anaheim Bay jetty to the groin, the groin is the concrete sheet pile wall underneath the pier, that is an important feature, and holds the position of the east beach in place, waves approaching the shoreline reflect off of the Anaheim Bay jetty and are directed back towards the narrow portion of east beach, they combine with the next incoming wave to create a doubling up of wave energy; the sand moves from the east beach west towards the pier, the course sand gets caught by the groin, the finer sand gets around or over it and goes to west beach, so there is a dist~nct difference in grain size from east beach to west beach and in beach slope; * his personal experience on the beach without a dike was in 1997, there was a high tide in the morning and two types of ocean swells occurring at the same time, neither of them on their own were huge but when combined they became significant, they were rated somewhere between the event that happens every five or ten years, when combined with high tide, it takes on a fairly severe condition, the beach was relatively low and narrow and the waves just ran over it, it flooded Seal Way and the water collected at the foot of 10th and 11th streets, a dike was built that day, it was built successfully, and has continued to be used ever since; * * there is a lot of concern about the length of time that the dike is up and the elevation therefore a workshop was held in August that he, City staff, and a number of people attended, the consensus from that workshop was that the period of time that the dike is up should be shorter than has occurred in the recent past, somewhere between November and the first of April, lowering of the dike was another request, also shortened in length so that it does not occupy the whole beach; * comparing those requests with what has been recommended from an engineering study, the most recent before this was in 1984, that was just after the winters of 1982 and 1983 when there was some severe damage in Seal Beach as well as most other coastal 9-22-03 locations, the recommendation was that the dike come up to about twenty feet above the lowest low water line on average, that is about nine feet above the Seal Way walkway, that it extend from 11th Street to Dolphin, and then taper down to about eighteen feet above the tideline, or seven feet above the walkway height toward the pier and the Anaheim Bay jetty and should occupy the whole beach, it should be relatively wide, on the ocean side of the planters, and once it is taken down the beach should never be lower than about five feet above the Seal Way walkway, the sand should be taken from west beach to build it; I * what his firm was recently requested to do was to look at the old study, look at the beach as to what has occurred more recently, then update the study, see if all of that is needed or if it is a little too conservative and possibly some of it could be pulled back, not forgetting however that in 1997 there was a demonstration of El Nino and the beach could be overtopped without a dike, they used a numerical model to determine how high the water gets with certain wave and tide conditions; * the conclusion was that the twenty foot elevation was quite good, and it should be from 12th Street to slightly east of Dolphin, the recommendation is that it stay at twenty feet, on the westerly side of 12th or the other side of Dolphin it can taper to eighteen feet, and can drop off entirely as it gets to Neptune, it does not have to go all the way to the Anaheim Bay jetty as the beach is significantly wider there, it is felt that the width was appropriately recommended as well as the location relative to the planters, but the timing of the dike can be shortened, their belief is that it should be in place by the 15th of November, they looked at the probability of the time frame for high waves and they seem to start early November, and it is not just high waves that the dike protects, it is the combined high waves and high tides, this starts about Thanksgiving, goes through December, January, February, and the probability drops off in March, the recommendation then is mid-November until April 1st, on the other sides of those dates it does not have to be up unless it is felt that an El Nino winter is coming then discretion can be used to lengthen the time on either end; I * once the dike is taken down it is recommended that in the summer the beach be no more than four feet above the Seal Way walkway so that people can see the horizon; * that the sand used to build the dike be as course as possible and available, the area would be next to the groin and in front of the 10th Street parking lot, that is good sand, however it will not be enough to build the dike so the recommendation is to go to the west side of the groin where there is an alleyway of course sand that has flipped over the groin, and along the waterline on west beach there is a high crown that is now very course sand that extends westward about half way down the beach, if I 9-22-03 that is not enough then the recommendation is to take some of the finer sand, that is a medium grain sand. I The Director of Public Works added that they plotted an aerial photograph and then had Moffatt & Nichol do a winter and summer profile of what they will be building, it shows the tapering down of areas at both ends as well as where the sand will be taken from, this will be used when working with the contractor who builds the berm, one of the comments from the meeting was that it is not built the same every year, it changes as staff changes, so this will be the plan that will be used if approved by the Council from this point onward. Mr. Weber concluded that the dike works, it is recommended that it continue to be used, the sand is available to do so, Seal Beach is fortunate in that there are other coastal cities that do not have available sand, they can not always erect a dike, it can be shortened and lowered somewhat, it could be done over a shorter period of time, and if the beach is wide enough, the City could can get a wider beach, maybe have some sand brought in, the beach needs to be about three hundred and some feet wide for that to happen, significantly wider than it is today, today it is not wide enough to go without the dike, it is presently on the order of two hundred feet at its widest point, less at the narrow point, about one hundred eighty feet. I Councilman Doane expressed some concern in that there were two opinions during the Public Comments, people who do not live on Seal Way want to keep the berm up longer in that it was felt the sea water contributes to the flooding in their area, there are conflicts of opinions, he has heard that during storms the water that got into the low area was not sea water rather water from heavy rains, also that the pumps were not adequately taking it away, and asked if salinity tests were ever done in the low area to determine that it was sea water. Mr. Weber responded not to their knowledge, they have seen that area flood when it rains, sometimes there are high waves and high tides when it rains so there could be a contribution from run-up over the beach toward 14th Street however he has never seen that, they have looked at the City drainage maps, in their opinion the water that comes over the beach towards Seal Way usually heads west towards the pier, some may go east but it is not a significant contributor to the problem, his belief is that it is storm drainage from rainfall. The Public Works Director added that when there is a twenty-five year storm with curb to curb flooding on Ocean, and water or wave run-up would go down toward that area but it is a combination of factors that have to happen with the wave run-up and from a rain event at the same time. Councilman Doane noted that there was bad flooding at the Radisson Hotel some years back as well, that was not water from the beach. The Director mentioned that there is flooding that occurs just from rain and has nothing to do with wave run-up, that is a storm event. Councilman Antos mentioned that there were also questions raised at the meeting, some of which have been answered, one had to do with the selection of sand size, in the past it is likely there was no plan from which the contractor would build the dike, and asked if staff is confident with the plan and the contractor that the sand will be taken from the areas ident~fied that are the larger and medium grain sand rather than the blow sand. The Public Works Director confirmed his confidence, noted that Moffatt & Nichol will actually be I 9-22-03 doing some of the construction observations and from where the sand will be taken, they will be able to make adjustments while in the field, staff will be relying on their coastal engineering expertise to assure that it is the appropriate sand to be placed on the east beach. Doane moved, second by Larson, to receive and file the September 2003 Winter Dike Assessment Report by Moffatt & Nichol and directed staff to implement the recommendations presented in the report. I AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried RESOLUTION NUMBER 5169 - PROPOSED EDUCATIONAL CENTER - HELLMAN RANCH Mayor Campbell read the recommendations set forth in the staff report, 1) to select an approved location, Option C recommended by the Parks and Recreation Commission, reject all other locations as inappropriate through the adoption of proposed Resolution Number 5169, 2) instruct staff to implement the necessary actions for submission to the California Coastal Commission, 3) and instruct staff to finalize the form of the annuity for on-going maintenance and care, only if a location in Gum Grove Park is selected by the Council, or accept a lump sum cash deposit in an amount equal to the construction valuation of the split rail fence for City maintenance and replacement expenses. Mayor Campbell noted that if Option C is selected then recommendation 3 becomes irrelevant. Councilman Yost said that was not necessarily so in that they are proposing a trail going through the area of which there will be on-going maintenance and other things to take care of, yet if the access is through the development rather than Gum Grove Park then recommendation 3 would become moot, however if there will still be a boulder trail and if a pathway is provided leading to the Educational Center he would think that the annuity would still be needed to take care of it. The City Manager presented the staff report, noted that this matter was considered by the Parks and Recreation Commission, before the Council is Option C which takes care of the neighborhood concerns, the concerns of the Native Americans, provides the Educational Center, and although there are alternatives discussed in the staff report Option C has gone through the process, the Gum Grove Park Group position was presented earlier. The one issue that came up was the fence, concern raised with a split rail fence, his recommendation would be to move forward with location C and hold over the third part of the recommendation as far as the maintenance, care, and lump sum cash for the split rail fence, that can be brought back to Council at a later date, this would get the issue moving, it may be necessary to seek additional comments from members of the neighborhood relating to the split rail fence. I Councilman Yost moved to accept Option C, the Council has been through this several times and C is the best option for the number of reasons previously discussed, that no action be taken on the third recommendation which can come back to the Council. Councilman Antos seconded the motion. I AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried 9-22-03 I CITIZEN PARKING CONCERNS - RIVIERA DRIVE The Director of Public Works expressed appreciation to the residents who brought forth this issue for Council consideration. The Director noted that there are nine homes along Riviera Drive that are being impacted due to the increase of the school field usage, the impacts include no on-street parking, parking in front of driveway approaches, users not using the ballfield lots, drinking witnessed by the residents, the changing of clothes, damage to the parkway, and trash in the parkways and gutters. Thus far staff has requested increased enforcement by the Police Department, the Police Department has spoken with the School District, notices were sent to some of the leagues asking that they be a good neighbor, yet as heard this evening that effort will likely not resolve the problems being experienced by the residents. The Director pointed out that within the staff report a process has been outlined through which residential parking could be implemented, that authority would be designated to the Council to go forward to restrict parking. He also recommended holding a stakeholder meeting between the residents and the School District, distributing educational materials, those are preliminary steps, staff would like to perform a limited parking study for the reason that staff does not want to shift the parking problems on Riviera to another street, the intent is to contain the problem, it is also believed that the Coastal Commission will require that a detailed parking study be done, after the parking study application could be made for a Coastal Permit, and upon its approval the Council would adopt a resolution to implement the program. I Councilman Yost said he would recommend adoption of the permit plan and then send it to the Coastal Commission for approval, there is a residential permit plan in place for Old Town, this would merely be an extension or enhancement of that program, and so moved. Councilman Larson seconded the motion. I Mayor Campbell noted that there are several things for Council consideration, one was to hold a broader community stakeholder meeting, the distribution of educational materials from which she was uncertain how much would be gained, and if it is necessary to go to Coastal they will require a parking study, possibly the permit plan could be submitted to Coastal to see if they would require a study, if approved the Council would adopt a Resolution implementing the program. Mayor Campbell mentioned that Riviera Drive is a very narrow street, basically there should not be parking on the school side of the street, it would be nearly impossible for a fire truck to travel the street. There was an indicated agreement that a stakeholders meeting be held for the reason that all of the problems will not be resolved through a parking permit program. Councilman Yost noted that he has been unable to make any headway with the President of Kids Baseball as to the issues of the residents, there should be a meeting of the parties to this, increased police presence when there is excess noise, deal with the issues from an enforcement standpoint as well. Councilman Antos suggested that a loading zone be implemented on the school side of the street, that would allow the drop off and pick up of children for school and activities, and since the residents do not park on the school side of the street those that attempt to park on the street rather than use the ballfield lots at the school could be cited, that would basically remove the vehicles that are causing the problem. 9-22-03 The Mayor claimed that persons dropping children off for school generally use the Bolsa entrance, to that Councilman Antos stated that they use all of the entrances to the school grounds. Councilman Antos suggested also that someone needs to talk to the School District because if people are dropping children off for baseball there are basically two places to enter the field, the corner of Riviera and Marlin or through the parking lots by the gymnasium because the school does not open other entrances, if the school would open the other entrances there would likely be less of a problem, the school needs to tell the people where to park and if they do not and are parked illegally they will be ticketed and/or towed, he does not believe it is necessary to go to the Coastal Commission to achieve that, if the preference is to extend the resident parking then just use the one hour sticker to go longer. The Manager said he believed that the concern is that it is both sides of the street, while a loading zone area may help on one side it will not help on the other side, and upon examining the existing parking program the problem is that anyone in Seal Beach can park there who has a parking sticker, it would require a more restrictive program with a different colored sticker only for the Riviera residents. Councilman Doane agreed, and further, the help of the Kids Baseball group needs to be enlisted, specifically with the night use of the field, they need to be brought into this matter and made as responsible for the problem as anyone else, if they do not cooperate possibly the City in some way can hold up their permits for ballgames. The Mayor said the problem is that the School District is leasing the field to whomever they want, the only time that the School District is going to do anything is when the people complain to them that they can not park. Councilman Yost expressed preference for the parking permit plan. Councilman Larson noted that the Council dealt with the important issue of the sand berm rather quickly, why make a huge case out of taking care of nine houses, the residents are living with misery, the problem of double parking and pulling into driveways will never be solved but there could at least be a start, if one thing does not work then do something else. I I Councilman Yost again stated his motion to adopt the residential parking plan for Riviera Drive. Councilman Antos seconded the motion. Mayor Campbell explained that would be a restrictive parking sticker just for the Riviera Drive area. Councilman Larson noted that there are a number of other issues to be dealt with, this would be a first step, as an example, in a residential area there should be a way to shut off the lights. Mayor Campbell suggested a limit that there be no lights after 10:00 p.m. The City Manager clarified that staff will be bringing forth an ordinance and follow up to this concept. AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried I DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER SPECIFIC PLAN ADVISORY COMMITTEE - MEMBERSHIP This item was tabled until such time as a completed development application for the Department of Water and Power property is submitted for consideration. 9-22-03 I PUBLIC HEARING / RESOLUTION NUMBER 5171 - LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT BLOCK GRANT 2003 Mayor Campbell declared the public hearing open to consider the acceptance and appropriation of Local Law Enforcement Block Grant for 2003. The City Clerk certified that notice of the public hearing was advertised as required by law and reported no communications received. The City Manager reported that the grant is for $10,932, the City match is $1,215, the intent is to purchase Taser equipment for the Police patrol personnel, equipment that the City would be unable to obtain with City funds only. There being no comments from the public, Mayor Campbell declared the public hearing closed. Yost moved, second by Antos, to adopt Resolution Number 5171 entitled "A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH, CALIFORNIA, AUTHORIZING A BUDGET AMENDMENT, NO. 04-09, FOR THE INCREASE IN THE CITY'S MATCHING CONTRIBUTION FOR THE LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT BLOCK GRANT." By unanimous consent, full reading of Resolution Number 5171 was waived. AYES: NOES: Antos, Campbell, Doane, Larson, Yost None Motion carried CITY ATTORNEY REPORT No report was presented. CITY MANAGER REPORT No report was presented. I COUNCIL COMMENTS Councilman Yost said he hoped that the press made note of the Department of Water and Power property issue and will publicize it so that more of the public can be advised of any proposal that goes through the process. Councilman Antos said he wished to speak to the issues of sandcastles, sand and glue, noted that the Council received a communication this date from Sandcastles Unlimited, but of interest is that he has a materials safety data sheet on supposedly the Elmers that was used, it says prevent entry into natural bodies of water, if swallowed go to a poison control center, incompatible with strong acids and alkaline material, and if spilled absorb it and take it to a hazardous waste dump. According to his information this was sprayed on only one of the castles, yet some of his neighbors made a castle and when he told them about the glue they confirmed that someone had sprayed all of the castles, therefore there was glue sprayed on the sand with no City permit, no Coastal Commission permit, the material safety data sheet states that that is not supposed to be done. He said his pOint is that he wants it stopped, he has no knowledge how many years this has been done, what damage has been done, it is known that sand is taken from the same area where the sand castles are built each year and transported to the Seal Way area, he wants to make certain that in the future there is nothing like that mixed with the sand and left, the material safety data sheet needs to be followed and then taken to a hazardous waste dump, as well as get the proper permits from all of the various agencies to mix glue with the sand beforehand. Mayor Campbell made a comment that there are people upset because they are not notified of things are coming up, yet the City does not know who wants to know what, suggesting that people log onto the City website and view the agenda. With regard to the sandcastle issue, her understanding is that as soon as the wood glue was discovered the sandcastle people I 9-22-03 I 10-13-03 immediately went to Ganal Lumber to obtain Elmers white school glue which is what is used, diluted by ten parts water to one part Elmers white glue, it is not toxic. Councilman Antos countered that what he read was the material safety data sheet for Elmers white glue, to that Mayor Campbell stated that the schools would not allow children to use something toxic. Councilman Yost said he would not be present for the October 13th meeting for professional reasons. I CLOSED SESSION No Closed Session was held. ADJOURNMENT It was the order of the Chair, with consent of the Council, to adjourn the meeting until October 13th at 6:30 p.m. to meet in Closed Session if deemed necessary. By unanimous consent, the meeting was adjourned at 10:20 p.m. clerk A_''--P~~ ~ Mayo:{ Attest: I Seal Beach, California October 13, 2003 The regular adjourned meeting scheduled for date was canceled due to the lack of Closed of consideration. 6:30 p.m. this Session items in Seal Beach, California October 13, 2003 I The City Council of the City of Seal Beach met in regular session at 7:00 p.m. with Mayor Campbell calling the meeting to order with the Salute to the Flag. ROLL CALL Present: Mayor Campbell Councilmembers Antos, Doane, Larson