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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC Min 1995-08-31 8-29-95 I 8-31-95 Attest: of the I Approved: Seal Beach, California August 31, 1995 The city Council of the City of Seal Beach met in regular adjourned session at 8:00 p.m. with Mayor Hastings calling the meeting to order. ROLL CALL Present: Mayor Hastings Councilmembers Brown, Doane, Forsythe, Laszlo I Absent: None Also present: Mr. Shelver, Interim city Manager Mr. Barrow, City Attorney Mr. Steele, Assistant City Attorney Mrs. Yeo, City Clerk APPROVAL OF AGENDA The order of the agenda was approved by consensus of the Council. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS There were no Oral Communications. The following is a transcript of the proceedings relating to the appeal of Pacific Pain Control in the matter of the revocation of a massage establishment permit by the Chief of Police. II BEFORE THE CITY COUNCIL CITY OF SEAL BEACH, STATE OF CALIFORNIA I IN RE: ) ) PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL ) VOLUME I I APPEAL OF REVOCATION ) OF CITY MASSAGE ) ESTABLISHMENT PERMIT. ) 8-31-95 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS, TAKEN AT SEAL BEACH CITY HALL, 211 8TH STREET, SEAL BEACH, CALIFORNIA, COMMENCING AT 8:00 P.M., HEARD BEFORE THE SEAL BEACH CITY COUNCIL, REPORTED BY KRISTINA DELATORRE, CSR NO. 7870, A CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER IN AND FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA. I APPEARANCES: FOR THE APPELLANT: LAW OFFICES OF JOSEPH T. VODNOY BY: JOSEPH T. VODNOY 316 WEST 2ND STREET SUITE 1200 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90012 FOR THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH: LAW OFFICES OF RICHARDS, WATSON & GERSHON BY: CRAIG A. STEELE 333 SOUTH HOPE STREET 38TH FLOOR LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90071-1469 CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS: MAYOR HASTINGS MR. DOANE MR. BROWN MR. LASZLO MS. FORSYTHE I CITY MANAGER: JACK SHELVER CITY ATTORNEY: QUINN BARROW CITY CLERK: JOANNE YEO I N D E X APPELLANT'S WITNESSES: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS CONRAD YOUNGERMAN 22 49 76 E X H I BIT S I APPELLANT'S: MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE A - FLOOR PLAN 32 49 B-1 THROUGH B-13 - SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS (RETAINED BY THE CLERK) 33 49 I I I 8-31-95 C - SERIES OF CARDS (RETAINED BY THE CLERK) D - FLIER 44 49 48 49 E - PLAQUE (RETAINED BY THE CLERK) 94 MAYOR HASTINGS: GOOD EVENING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. WELCOME TO THIS EVENING'S SESSION, THURSDAY, AUGUST 31ST. WOULD YOU PLEASE JOIN US IN THE FLAG SALUTE? (FLAG SALUTE) MAYOR HASTINGS: MRS. YEO, WOULD YOU PLEASE CALL THE ROLL? THE CLERK: MAYOR HASTINGS? MAYOR HASTINGS: HERE. THE CLERK: COUNCIL MEMBERS, MS. FORSYTHE? MS. FORSYTHE: HERE. THE CLERK: MR. LASZLO? MR. LASZLO: HERE. THE CLERK: MR. BROWN? MR. BROWN: HERE. THE CLERK: AND MR. DOANE? MR. DOANE: HERE. MAYOR HASTINGS: THANK YOU. MR. BARROW: I'LL STATE FOR THE RECORD THAT THE COURT REPORTER IS HERE. MR. STEELE, REPRESENTING THE CITY IS HERE. MR. YOUNGERMAN, THE APPLICANT IS HERE. AND APPARENTLY MR. YOUNGERMAN'S ATTORNEY IS NOT HERE. MR. YOUNGERMAN CAN COME UP TO THE PODIUM AND BASICALLY STATE WHAT YOU'VE ALREADY SAID, SO YOU CAN GET IT ON THE RECORD. THE WITNESS: MY ATTORNEY, I TALKED TO LATE THIS AFTERNOON. AND IN TURN I'M SURE HE WAS WELL AWARE THAT THERE WAS A MEETING THIS EVENING, BUT I HAVE NOT HEARD FROM HIM SINCE. SO I WOULD LIKE SOME TYPE OF ARRANGEMENT OF A TEMPORARY POSTPONMENT SO -- WHAT DO THEY SAY -- MAYOR HASTINGS: COULD WE -- WOULD IT BE ALL RIGHT WITH YOU IF I CALLED FOR A RECESS FOR 15 MINUTES, SAY? THE WITNESS: IT'S ONLY A FOOL THAT REPRESENTS HIMSELF? MAYOR HASTINGS: WELL, NO, NOT ALWAYS. MR. BROWN: I'M SURE YOU WOULD REPRESENT YOURSELF VERY WELL. MAYOR HASTINGS: AND I BELIEVE THAT SINCERELY, TOO. SO ANYWAY, WE'LL HAVE A 15-MINUTE RECESS. . MR. LASZLO: MAY WE HAVE A DISCUSSION ON THIS? I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO WAITING OR ANYTHING, BUT I WAS CERTAINLY CURIOUS TO HOW LONG WE SHOULD WAIT AND WHAT OUR ALTERNATIVE IS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENS IN A CASE LIKE THIS. AND I THINK THERE SHOULD BE SOME SORT OF TIME LIMITS SET HERE. MAYOR HASTINGS: WELL, I ASKED FOR A 15-MlNUTE RECESS, THAT WOULD BE 20 MINUTES PAST 8:00. THE MAN IS AT HIS HEALTH CLINIC THAT HE TAKES TWICE A WEEK ON TUESDAYS AND THURSDAYS, I BELIEVE HE SAID. AND HE SAID HE FELT THAT HE COULD BE HERE BY 8: 00 0' CLOCK. NOW, IF HE HAS ANY TRAFFIC PROBLEMS OR ANYTHING TO TIE HIM UP, I THINK THAT WE ALLOW HIM ANOTHER 15 MINUTES TO MAKE SURE THAT HE INDEED WILL GET HERE. AND I THINK THAT WE OWE THAT TO MR. YOUNGERMAN. MR. LASZLO: SURE, I HAVE NO PROBLDI WITH THAT. BUT I'M -- BUT I WANTED TO KNOW HOW LONG WE SHOULD WAIT. MR. BROWN: LET'S DEAL WITH IT AFTER RECESS. MAYOR HASTINGS: YES, LET'S DEAL WITH IT AFTER RECESS. (RECESS) 8-31-95 MAYOR HASTINGS: OUR RECESS IS NOW OVER. ALL THE PRINCIPALS SEEM TO BE HERE. AND BEFORE THIS STARTS, WHAT I WANT TO DO IS, I ESPECIALLY WANT TO WELCOME MR. VODNOY AND MRS. DELATORRE FOR FINDING TIME IN THEIR SCHEDULE TO COME HERE -- TO COME BACK AGAIN THIS EVENING. J: WANT TO THANK MR. BARROW AND MR. SHELVER, MRS. FORSYTHE, MR. DOANE, MR. BROWN, MR. LASZLO AND MR. STEELE, I MR. YOUNGERMAN AND OUR PEOPLE FROM OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT, MR. STEARNS, MR. MOLLOHAN, MR. MULLINS. I JUST THINK IT'S REALLY NICE OF YOU ALL TO COME BACK BECAUSE IT'S LATE IN THE EVENING. AND I KNOW THAT THIS DEFENSE IS GOING TO BE A LOT SHORTER THAN OUR TUESDAY MEETING. AND SO -- AND MRS. YEO WITH YOUR -- TAKING YOUR DICTATION. AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET IT BE ANOTHER FIVE HOURS AND LET IT END UP WITH A SORE ARM. SO ANYWAY, NOW THAT I'VE WELCOMED EVERYBODY, LET'S BEGIN. SO WHAT WE'LL DO IS, IT WILL BE BEGIN WITH THE APPROVAL OF THE AGENDA. AND THIS IS A TIME TO NOTIFY THE PUBLIC OF ANY CHANGES TO THE AGENDA, WHICH I BELIEVE WE HAVE NONE. MR. BROWN: MOVE APPROVAL. MAYOR HASTINGS: OR REARRANGE THE ORDER OF THE AGENDA, NOT HAVING ANY. MR. BROWN: MOVE APPROVAL. MR. LASZLO: SECOND. (WHEREUPON THE MOTION WAS UNANIMOUSLY CARRIED.) MAYOR HASTINGS: MR. BROWN, MR. LASZLO -- THE VOTE IS 5-0. AND THEN WE'LL MOVE ON WITH ORAL COMMUNICATIONS. AT THIS TIME MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC MAY ADDRESS COUNCIL REGARDING ANY ITEMS WITHIN THE SUBJECT MATTER JURISDICTION OF THE COUNCIL PURSUANT TO THE BROWN ACT. COUNCIL CANNOT DISCUSS OR TAKE ACTION ON ITEMS NOT ON THE AGENDA UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY LAW. MATTERS BROUGHT BEFORE THE COUNCIL THAT ARE NOT ON THE AGENDA MAY, AT THE COUNCIL'S DISCRETION, BE REFERRED TO STAFF OR PLACED ON THE NEXT AGENDA. ARE THERE ANY PEOPLE HERE THAT WOULD LIKE TO I SPEAK? SEEING NONE, ORAL COMMUNICATIONS ARE OVER. THE AGENDA ITEM THIS EVENING WILL BE THAT THIS IS THE TIME AND PLACE FOR THE CONTINUED HEARING OF THE APPEAL OF THE PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL AT 550 PACIFIC COAST HIGHWAY. AND IT'S DEALING WITH THE LICENSE REVOCATION. QUINN, MR. BARROW, WE DO HAVE A REPORT? MR. BARROW: AT THIS TIME I THINK WE CAN PROCEED WITH THE CONTINUED HEARING. I UNDERSTAND MR. STEELE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT OR APPROACH THE PODIUM. HE SHOULD DO THAT AT THIS TIME. MR. STEELE: THANK YOU. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL, GOOD EVENING. AGAIN, I HAVE ONE ITEM I WOULD LIKE TO PUT ON THE RECORD AND BRING TO YOUR ATTENTION. TUESDAY NIGHT, WE -- MR. VODNOY AND I BOTH ENUNCIATED A NUMBER OF OBJECTIONS AND WE EACH RESPONDED TO THE OTHER'S OBJECTIONS. AND IN SOME CASES NEITHER ONE OF US CITED ANY LEGAL AUTHORITY FOR THE POSITION WE WERE TAKING. WE WERE IN THE MIDST OF A HEARING AND WE GAVE YOU OUR POSITIONS. THERE WERE TWO SPECIFIC OBJECTIONS THAT MR. VODNOY I- RAISED THAT BROUGHT INTO PLAY SOME VERY SIGNIFICANT CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES. AND I ARGUED IN RESPONSE TO BOTH OF THOSE OBJECTIONS, THAT I THOUGHT MR. VODNOY WAS JUST SIMPLY WRONG ON THE LAW. AND BECAUSE THE OBJECTIONS DID RAISE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES, I THOUGHT TAKING A COUPLE MINUTES TODAY AND DOING A LITTLE RESEARCH ON THOSE TWO ISSUES TO BE SURE THAT WHAT I HAD STATED TO YOU WAS -- AS BEING THE LAW WAS CORRECT. AND I JUST WANTED TO BRING THE ACTUAL LEGAL AUTHORITY TO YOUR ATTIDfTION FOR THE PROPOSITIONS THAT I STATED THE OTHER NIGHT. ONE ISSUE HAD TO DO WITH THE ADMISSION BY MS. GRAHAM REGARDING GIVING MASSAGES AT THE BUSINESS AND HER I I I t...... .... '~'"'i,.,-._.~"......,... . '........ ~... "';:..:>"i:'" . ':" .,. . 8-31-95 STATEMENT TO DETECTIVE MULLINS THAT WAS ALLEGEDLY IN VIOLATION OF THE MIRANDA CASE. MR. VODNOY OBJECTED AT THAT TIME, ASKED THAT THAT STATEMENT BE STRICKEN, BECAUSE HE ARGUED THAT IT WAS IN VIOLATION OF MIRANDA. I HAD TOLD YOU THAT I THOUGHT MIRANDA WASN'T APPLICABLE IN AN ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING; THAT IS IN FACT THE LAW IN CALIFORNIA. THE EXCLUSIONARY RULE, WHICH SAYS YOU HAVE TO EXCLUDE EVIDENCE THAT'S ILLEGALLY OBTAINED OR A CONFESSION THAT'S OBTAINED IN VIOLATION OF MIRANDA, DOES NOT APPLY IN ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS. AND CALIFORNIA SUPREME COURT CASE TO THAT EFFECT IS EMSLIE, E-M-S-L-I-E, VERSUS CALIFORNIA STATE BAR, PH CAL.3D 210. THAT'S A 1974 CASE. THAT MEANS THAT EVEN IF THIS STATEMENT BY MS. GRAHAM WAS GIVEN IN VIOLATION OF MIRANDA, IT CAN STILL BE ADMITTED IN THIS PROCEEDING. THE SECOND ISSUE HAD TO DO WITH MR. VODNOY'S OBJECTION AT THE BEGINNING OF THE EVENING REGARDING CONTINUING THE HEARING BECAUSE HIS CLIENTS WERE SUBJECT TO CRIMINAL PROSECUTION AND TO HAVE THEM TESTIFY HERE MIGHT VIOLATE THEIR FIFTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS AGAINST SELF-INCRIMINATION. I ALSO LOOKED INTO THAT ISSUE, AND THE LAW IN CALIFORNIA IS THAT, AGAIN, THE TWO PROCEEDINGS ARE SEPARATE AND THAT THE FIFTH AMENDMENT ARGUMENT DOESN'T APPLY IN THE ADMINISTRATIVE CONTEXT. THE AUTHORITY FOR THAT RULE IN CALIFORNIA IS A CASE CALLED SAVOY CLUB, S-A-V-O-Y, VERSUS L.A. COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS, 127 CAL.APP.3D 1034, AND THAT CASE, BY THE WAY, INVOLVED THE REVOCATION OF A CARD CLUB LICENSE FROM AN OWNER WHO HAD COMMITTED -- WHO WAS BEING PROSECUTED CRIMINALLY FOR GAMBLING VIOLATIONS AS WELL. SO I THOUGHT YOU SHOULD BE AWARE OF THAT. THERE IS LEGAL AUTHORITY FOR THOSE TWO POSITIONS THAT YOU TOOK IN RESPONSE TO OUR ARGUMENTS THE OTHER NIGHT. AND THANK YOU FOR THE TIME. MAYOR HASTINGS: THANK YOU, MR. STEELE. I KNOW THAT MAKES US FEEL A LOT MORE CONFIDENT TO KNOW THAT WE FOLLOWED THROUGH AND DID THE PROPER THING. MR. VODNOY, DO YOU WANT TO -- MR. VODNOY: YES. I WONDER IF I COULD MAKE A COUPLE OF INTRODUCTORY REMARKS? MAYOR HASTINGS: OF COURSE. MR. VODNOY: WHILE WE'RE CITING LAW, I THOUGHT I'D CITE SOME LAW, TOO. IT IS MY POSITION THAT THE ENTIRE PROCEEDINGS THAT ARE SET UP IN THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH ARE IN VIOLATION OF DUE PROCESS BECAUSE OF THE TECHNIQUE IN WHICH IT'S DONE, WHICH IS, A DETERMINATION IS MADE WITHOUT REFERENCE TO ANY INPUT, ANY HEARING, READING ANY REPORTS INTERVIEWING THE PARTICIPANTS. AND A PUNITIVE ACTION WAS TAKEN, WHICH IS THE REVOCATION OF THE LICENSE TO BE IN BUSINESS. THEY THEN FOLLOW THAT UP WITH A HEARING WHICH IS THIS HERE, BUT THIS HEARING IS NOT A HEARING TO DETERMINE WHETHER THE -- BASICALLY THE BUSINESS SHOULD BE OPENED OR CLOSED. IT'S WHETHER YOU SHOULD -- AND THAT WAS THE QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED EARLIER -- WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE; WHAT EXACTLY IS YOUR STATUS? AND YOU'RE DETERMINING ,WHETHER THE CHIEF OF POLICE WAS CORRECT OR INCORRECT, FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD. THE CASE I CITE IS KELLY VERSUS STATE PERSONNEL BOARD AT 15 CAL.3D 194. AND IT TALKS ABOUT THE PROCEDURE SAFEGUARDS THAT HAVE TO BE GIVEN IN TERMS OF TAKING AWAY SOMEONE'S RIGHT TO EARN A LIVING. AND THE CASE TALKS ABOUT THAT THERE HAS TO BE A NOTICE OF A PROPOSED ACTION, THE REASONS THEREFORE, A COPY OF THE CHARGES AND MATERIALS UPON WHICH THE ACTION IS BASED, AND THE RIGHT TO RESPOND EITHER ORALLY OR IN WRITING TO THE AUTHORITY INITIALLY IMPOSING THE DISCIPLINE. THE AUTHORITY THAT INITIALLY IMPOSED THE DISCIPLINE IS THE CHIEF OF POLICE. AND IT IS MY POSITION THAT AS FRAMED, AS DIRECTED, THE ENTIRE PROCEDURE HERE IS IN . VIOLATION OF THE CALIFORNIA -- UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION AND THE CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION. THIS IS A CALIFORNIA SUPREME COURT 8-31-95 CASE DISCUSSING THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT DECISION. IN ADDITION TO THAT, I WANT TO RAISE THE - AND THIS MAY BE MORE FOR SUPERIOR COURT THAN FOR YOU, BUT, I MEAN, I WANT TO AT LEAST GO ON RECORD ON THESE POINTS. THE DETERMINATION WAS MADE THAT ON TWO SEPARATE OCCASIONS -- THAT IS THE DETERMINATION BY THE CHIEF OF POLICE -- ON TWO SEPARATE OCCASIONS THERE WERE NUMEROUS VIOLATIONS OF THE MUNICIPAL CODE I AND THE PENAL CODE. THE PROBLEM FOR THE CITY, AS I SEE IT, IS THAT ON THE MAY 31ST -- THERE HAS TO BE TWO VIOLATIONS IN ORDER TO RAISE -- AND THEN HE HAS NO DISCRETION. HE HAS TO REVOKE. IT IS MY POSITION WITH RESPECT TO THE MAY 31ST -- NOT THE JULY 6TH,' BUT THE MAY 31ST -- IN THE MAY 31ST, HE DID NOT READ ANY POLICE REPORTS. HE DID NOT INTERVIEW ANY OF THE OFFICERS THAT WENT OUT AND WERE INSIDE THE LOCATION ON THE 31ST. HE RELIED NOT ONLY ON HEARSAY, BUT DOUBLE HEARSAY FOR HIS DETERMINATION THAT THERE WERE VIOLATIONS ON THE 31ST. AND IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT IN THIS PROCEEDING TODAY OR ON TUESDAY, THAT YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MAY HAVE HEARD ALL KINDS OF GROUNDS UPON WHICH TO MAKE A DETERMINATION ON THE 31ST BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT SITTING AS THE, QUOTE, "THE KELLY CASE," THE AUTHORITY INITIALLY IMPOSING DISCIPLINE. IT WAS THE CHIEF OF POLICE. YOU ARE SITTING AS AN APPELLATE, IF FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD, DIVISION OVERSEEING HIS DECISION. SO IT IS MY POSITION THAT THERE WAS NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE. AND THE LAW IS CLEAR IN ADMINISTRATIVE LAW THAT YOU CANNOT BASE A DETERMINATION ON HEARSAY. HEARSAY IS ADMISSIBLE, BUT IT CANNOT BE THE BASIS FOR A DETERMINATION IN THE CASE. IN ADDITION, I WOULD LIKE TO RAISE THE ISSUE WITH RESPECT TO THE BURDEN OF PROOF BEING ON MYSELF. I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH A CASE CITED BY MR. STEELE, BUT I'LL -- IF THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS, THAT -- BY THE WAY, THERE ARE TWO FEMALES WERE 1- - FILED ON THIS MORNING IN WESTMINSTER, AND SO THAT THEY ARE DECLINING TO GIVE UP THEIR FIFTH AND SIXTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS BY TESTIFYING WHEN A CASE IS PENDING. I DID NOT KNOW UNTIL THIS MORNING WHETHER IT WOULD BE FILED OR NOT. AND I FOUND OUT THAT IT WAS. AND I'M GIVING YOU THE LATEST INFORMATION. IN ADDITION, THE WAY THIS STATUTE IS WRITTEN IS THAT, IF THE CHIEF OF POLICE -- THE CHIEF OF POLICE COULD REVOKE THIS LICENSE IF ON TWO OCCASIONS THE POLICEMAN CAME INTO THE LOCATION, FOUND THAT, SAY, THE PRICE LIST WAS NOT UP, WHICH IS A VIOLATION OF THE MUNICIPAL CODE, AND YOU WOULD HAVE NO CHOICE, IF THAT'S THE SITUATION, TO AGREE TO THE REVOCATION. AND IT'S CLEAR THAT WHAT'S HAPPENED HERE IS, THAT THE CHIEF OF POLICE HAS NO DISCRETION IN TERMS OF WHAT HE THINKS IS AN APPROPRIATE KIND OF SENTENCE OR APPROPRIATE KIND OF PUNISHMENT, SUCH AS MAYBE A 30-DAY OR 60-DAY OR 90-DAY OR SIX-MONTH SUSPENSION OR SOME KIND OF FASHION -- SOME KIND OF REMEDY THAT'S FASHIONED FOR THE PARTICULAR OFFENSE. HE HAS IT REVOKED. HIS DETERMINATION IS, IF HE'S PRESENTED WITH TWO VIOLATIONS ON TWO DIFFERENT DATES, HE SHALL REVOKE. IN ADDITION TO THAT, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY DISCR~TION AS SUCH IN DETERMINING WHETHER THE PUNISHMENT IS APPROPRIATE OR NOT. FOR EXAMPLE, IF WE WERE IN FRONT OF YOU WITH TWO MINUSCULE VIOLATIONS, LET'S SAY, NO PRICE LIST UP ON THE BOARD, YOU CAN'T FASHION A DETERMINATION. SO I THINK THAT IN ESSENCE THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THE CHIEF OF POLICE IS LEFT WITHOUT DISCRETION AND I THEN THE CITY COUNCIL IS LEFT WITHOUT DISCRETION. IN ADDITION TO THAT, I WILL -- I DO WANT TO COMMENT BRIEFLY THAT COUNCILMAN LASZLO, WHEN I ASKED FOR A CONTINUANCE SO I COULD STRAIGHTEN OUT THE GIRLS' CASE, SAID THAT, "OH, WELL, THEY WILL BE OPEN ANOTHER MONTH," WHICH WOULD INDICATE TO ME THIS CASE HAS ALREADY BEEN PREJUDGED BY AT LEAST ONE COUNCILMAN ON THE BOARD WITHOUT HEARING OUR DEFENSE. I'D LIKE TO OUTLINE NOW, SO I'M MAKING ALL OF THIS FOR YOUR BENEFIT. AND THE PROBLEM, OF COURSE, IS -- AND WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO MR. BARROW, I THINK HE'S AN EXCELLENT LAWYER AND AN ETHICAL ONE, BUT IF THERE IS NOT AN ACTUAL SITUATION I I I .",,~~.'.,:i.~""~". ,.....tr'. ..... ..,... ;-.-;t1"::.-~-i.. '~'''''''J'' . CO) 8-31-95 WHERE THERE IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST, THERE CERTAINLY IS THE APPEARANCE OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST BECAUSE WHAT'S HAPPENING IS I'M RAISING LEGAL OBJECTIONS AND CONSTITUTIONAL OBJECTIONS TO THE PROCEEDINGS IN THIS CASE. I'VE MENTIONED IT AT THE BEGINNING. I'M RAISING IT AT THE BEGINNING OF MY CASE NOW TO REITERATE SOME OF THE POINTS. IT'S GOING TO BE ARGUED AGAINST OR NOT BY MR. STEELE, WHO IS A MEMBER OF MR. BARROW'S FIRM, WORKING FOR THE SAME LAW FIRM. SO THAT EVEN WHILE I PERSONALLY HAVE NOTHING BUT GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT MR. BARROW IN TERMS OF MY OWN DEALINGS WITH HIM AND I THINK HE IS A VERY HONORABLE PERSON. THAT I S NOT THE POINT. HE HAS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. AND IT'S INTERESTING TO KNOW THAT JUST RECENTLY, AS RECENTLY, AS YESTERDAY, A FEDERAL JUDGE INVOLVING A CASE WHERE SHE WAS THE U.S. ATTORNEY AT ONE POINT, EXCUSED HERSELF FROM A CASE BECAUSE WHILE SHE WAS AU. S. ATTORNEY, THERE WAS A DETERMINATION -- THIS IS THE SWETSHON (PHONETIC) CASE -- MAYOR HASTINGS: OH. MR. VODNOY: -- WHERE I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THAT. SHE EXCUSED HERSELF EVEN THOUGH SHE HAD NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF ANY OF THE INCIDENTS INVOLVED IN 1992. IN THIS CASE, WE HAVE A CITY ATTORNEY WHO IS IN PRIVATE PRACTICE WORKING FOR A LAW FIRM THAT'S -- THAT MR. STEELE IS A MEMBER OF, RULING ON MY OBJECTION. I RAISED THIS AT THE OUTSET AND NOW IT'S CRYSTAL CLEAR THE PROBLEM, BECAUSE I'M RAISING CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES, I'M RAISING WHAT I CONSIDER MAJOR PROBLEMS IN THIS CASE. YOU WILL LOOK TO HIM FOR GUIDANCE BECAUSE THAT'S WHY HE'S HERE. I'M SURE HE'LL GIVE YOU HIS BEST DETERMINATION, BUT THERE IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. I SIMPLY POINT THAT OUT BECAUSE HE'S ON THE OTHER SIDE -- HIS FIRM IS ON THE OTHER SIDE. AND IN AN ADVERSARIAL PROCEEDING, WHICH THIS IS, WHENEVER AN ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING IS AN ADVERSARIAL PROCEEDING IN WHICH THE POLICE DEPARTMENT SIDE IS PRESENTED BY MR. STEELE AND THE PERMITTEE SIDE IS PRESENTED BY MYSELF AND WHEN YOU HAVE A MEMBER OF THE PROSECUTION TEAM RULING ON THE EVIDENCE AND TELLING YOU THAT MY MOTIONS ARE NO GOOD, YOU'RE LEFT WITHOUT AN INDEPENDENT VOICE FROM SOMEONE ELSE. I WILL GO ON TO NOW OUTLINE WHAT I THINK -- WHAT I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU THIS EVENING. AND IT WON'T BE VERY LONG. I'M RAISING ALL THESE ISSUES. I THINK I RAISED THEM BEFORE, BUT I WANT TO -- IN AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION, I WANT TO RAISE THEM AGAIN. YOU WILL HEAR FROM MR. CONRAD YOUNGERMAN, WHO IS ONE OF THE OWNERS OF THE PLACE. WE HAVE SOME EXHIBITS. ONE IS AN OUTLINE OF THE -- AND I HAVE ONE FOR EVERYONE -- EVERYBODY - THIS IS SORT OF A FLOOR PLAN OF THE LOCATION. IN ADDITION TO THAT, HE HAS TAKEN A NUMBER OF PICTURES. AND I'M GOING TO HE ASKING HIM ONLY ABOUT JULY 6TH BECAUSE -- FOR TWO REASONS: ONE, I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS NO -- THAT THE CHIEF OF POLICE WAS INCORRECT IN RULING ON MAY 31ST, AND I'M NOT GOING TO INTRODUCE ANY EVIDENCE AS SUCH; AND SECONDLY, HE WASN'T THERE ON MAY 31ST NOR WAS HE ACTUALLY THERE ON JULY 6TH WHEN THE POLICE WERE THERE, BUT HE DID TALK TO THE POLICE LATER. I WILL TELL YOU IN ADVANCE, SINCE THIS IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING, ORDINARILY WHEN WE MAKE AN OPENING STATEMENT, WE DON'T SPELL OUT WHAT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO SAY, BUT I'LL TELL YOU THAT HE WILL BE SHOWING YOU PICTURES OF THE LOCATION. AND I KNOW THE MAYOR WAS INTERESTED IN ONE OF THESE VARIOUS ROOMS, WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE, AND GOING FROM ROOM TO ROOM. HE WILL ALSO ADVISE YOU THAT SINCE THE POLICE WERE THERE ON JULY 6TH, CHA."l'GES HAVE BEEN MADE AT THE PLACE. THE MAJOR CHANGE: THERE AI'.E NO LOCKS ON ANY INTERIOR DOORS. AND WE HAVE PICTURES SHOWING THAT. AND, OF COURSE; THE POLICE ARE WELCOME TO COME BY AND VERIFY. THAT. . ADDITION, HE WILL TESTIFY THAT HE HAS.NUMEROUS CARDS -- THESE ARE CARDS OF THE CUSTOMERS THAT ARE KEPT IN THE 8-31-95 NORMAL COURSE OF BUSINESS. AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO READ THROUGH THESE CARDS, BUT I'LL HAVE THEM HERE AND YOU ARE WELCOME TO LOOK AT THEM. MAYOR HASTINGS: CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THE CARDS ARE EXACTLY? THAT WASN'T TOO CLEAR. MR. VODNOY: THE CARDS WOULD BE FILLED OUT BY THE CUSTOMER OUTLINING THEIR HEART PROBLEMS, WHETHER THEY HAD COMMUNICABLE DISEASE, RESPIRATORY. THEY WOULD SIGN IT, DATE IT, AND PUT THE TIME, THEIR DRIVER'S LICENSE NUMBER AND A PHONE NUMBER. AND I DIDN'T COUNT THE CARDS. I MEAN, I JUST WALKED IN, SO I DON'T KNOW -- MAYOR.HASTINGS: THANK YOU FOR THE VERIFICATION. MR. VODNOY: BUT THEY ARE THIS THICK (INDICATING), I WOULD SAY SIX INCHES, FIVE INCHES OF CARDS. AND YOU ARE WELCOME TO EXAMINE THEM. HE WILL ALSO TESTIFY THAT, AS TO HIS BACKGROUND - AND I'LL LET HIM DO THAT. AND HE WILL POINT OUT THAT HE WILL CONFIRM THAT THE CONVERSATION WITH MULLINS, AS MULLINS DESCRIBED, BUT THAT HE SPOKE TO ANNA LEE IN TERMS OF WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT THE CONVERSATION WITH MULLINS, AND MULLINS MISUNDERSTOOD HER. AND HE WILL TELL YOU WHAT SHE SAID. MAYOR HASTINGS: OKAY. MR. VODNOY: IT'S CLOSE, BUT IT WASN'T EXACTLY. SO WITHOUT -- UNLESS THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE, I JUST WANT TO RAISE ALL THESE ISSUES. I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY WANTS TO RESPOND. OTHERWISE, I'LL PUT MR. YOUNGERMAN ON. IT WILL BE FOR ABOUT TEN MINUTES, AND THEN I'M GOING TO REST. SO IF -- NOT HEARING ANYTHING, I'LL CALL MR. YOUNGERMAN TO THE STAND. AND I HAVE COPIES OF -- I DON'T KNOW. MAYOR HASTINGS: MRS. DELATORRE, WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE THE TELEVISION MOVED? WHAT WE NEED, MR. MULLINS AND MR. MOLLOHAN, IS IF YOU WILL PICK THE TABLE UP -- AND WATCH THE LEGS ON THIS END BECAUSE THEY TEND TO CURVE IN. AND IF YOU MOVE THIS ALL THE WAY OVER TO THIS DAISE OR WHATEVER THIS IS CALLED UP HERE, THE LEGS WILL TILT IN. (PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS) MR. VODNOY: I JUST HAVE A HOUSEKEEPING -- YOU KNOW, IN COURT WE USUALLY HAND IT TO THE BAILIFF AND THE BAILIFF HANDS IT ON TO THE COURT. I DON'T KNOW. IF YOU WANT, I CAN DISTRIBUTE THE -- MAYOR HASTINGS: SURE. JUST PASS THEM OUT; THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE. MR. BARROW WOULD LIKE TO HAVE ONE, TOO, I'M SURE. DO YOU HAVE ONE OF THESE, CHIEF STEARNS? DO YOU GENTLEMEN HAVE A COPY OF THIS? MR VODNOY: THERE MAY BE EXTRA COPIES. I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY THERE ARE. MAYOR HASTINGS: I THINK THESE GENTLEMEN SHOULD HAVE ONE, ALSO. MR. VODNOY: WELL, WE APPARENTLY MADE A WHOLE BUNCH OF COPIES. I I MAYOR HASTINGS: WELL, THAT'S GOOD. MR. VODNOY: I ALSO HAVE SOME OTHER MATERIAL THAT'S GIVEN OUT AT THE LOCATION REGARDING ACUPRESSURE. I'LL HAND THEM OUT. MAYOR HASTINGS: ARE THERE ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE OR WHO 1- WILL SHARE? MR. VODNOY: THEY ARE ALL THE SAME, DIFFERENT COLORS, BUT THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. MR. YOUNGERMAN - - MAYOR HASTINGS: I'D LIKE ALL OF US TO BE IN RECEIPT OF EVERYTHING THAT'S BEING SHOWN. I JUST DON'T WANT ANY EXCLUSIVITY HERE. THANK YOU, MR. VODNOY. THANK YOU, VERY MUCH. THAT WAS NICE ENOUGH FOR YOU TO BRING ENOUGH COPIES. I I I I':. '>I" '.:"; IS'-.....r... ., - 8-31-95 CONRAD YOUNGERMAN, CALLED AS A WITNESS BY AND ON BEHALF OF THE APPELLANT, AND HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY DULY SWORN BY THE CLERK, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. VODNOY: Q MR. YOUNGERMAN, YOU'VE PREVIOUSLY BEEN PLACED UNDER OATH. WOULD YOU STATE YOUR BACKGROUND AND EXPERIENCE? A MY NAME IS CONRAD YOUNGERMAN. I'M A RESIDENT OF LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA. I HAVE BASICALLY LIVED IN LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA SINCE ABOUT 1935. I WAS BORN MARCH 23RD, 1926, SO IT MAKES ME 70 YEARS OLD. MAYOR HASTINGS: AND YOUR ADDRESS IN LONG BEACH, PLEASE? THE WITNESS: 4311 EAST OCEAN BOULEVARD., LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA. MAYOR HASTINGS: 4311? THE WITNESS: YES. MR. BROWN: DOWN ABOUT REDONDO? THE WITNESS: NO, IT'S -- THE CROSS STREET IS BENNETT, RIGHT CATTY-CORNER FROM THE SWIM STADIUM. IT'S A LARGE WHITE BUILDING WITH BLUE TRIM -- MAYOR HASTINGS: I KNOW THE BUILDING. THE WITNESS: -- THAT I HAPPEN TO OWN. BY MR. VODNOY: Q AT ONE TIME, SPEAKING JUST OF YOUR ADDRESS, WERE YOU BUYING ANOTHER PLACE? A I WAS -- AT ONE TIME, I DON'T KNOW IF EVERYBODY HAS SOME DOMESTIC PROBLEMS FROM TIME TO TIME, BUT UNFORTUNATELY I DID -- DO, AND WAS CONSIDERING BUYING A PLOT WITH A TRAILER ON IT IN SEAL BEACH AT THAT LARGE TRAILER COURT THAT BORDERS THE _ CANAL. AND I THINK I HAD LIVED THERE FOR PRETTY CLOSE TO THREE MONTHS. IT WAS MENTIONED IN ONE OF THE REPORTS THAT THAT WAS AN ERRONEOUS ADDRESS. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, IT IS NOT AN ERRONEOUS ADDRESS. IT'S A VIABLE ADDRESS AND I WAS A RESIDENT THERE. AND IF THEY WISHED TO TALK TO THE MANAGEMENT THERE, THEY CAN CERTAINLY VERIFY THAT I PAID THREE MONTHS RENT. MAYOR HASTINGS: WHAT WAS YOUR ADDRESS. AT THE TRAILER PARK, PLEASE? THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY? MAYOR HASTINGS: WHAT WAS YOUR ADDRESS? THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY. I CANNOT TELL YOU. I DON'T REMEMBER THE NUMBERS. MAYOR HASTINGS: OH. THE WITNESS: IT WAS SEA VIEW SOMETHING. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS -- MAYOR HASTINGS: DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT STREET YOU LIVED ON THERE? THE WITNESS: IT WAS SEA VIEW, I THINK, WAS THE NAME OF IT. MAYOR HASTINGS: SEA VIEW? THE WITNESS: YEAH. MAYOR HASTINGS: ALL RIGHT. THE WITNESS: IT'S WRITTEN IN THE REPORT. BY MR. VODNOY: Q WITH RESPECT TO YOUR BUSINESS BACKGROUND, WHAT KIND OF WORK DID YOU DO? A I'M A UNIVERSITY GRADUATE FROM UNIVERSITY OF BERKELEY WITH A BACHELOR'S AND MASTER'S IN ENGINEERING. AND IN TURN I WENT INTO DESIGN WORK VERY HEAVILY BEFORE I WENT INTO ADVANCED PLANNING, WHICH IS REALLY A NICE WORD FOR MARKETING. AT ONE TIME I WAS CONSIDERED BY MY PEERS AS A PRETTY SHARP COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS THAT WERE OTHER THAN VOICE COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS. COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEMS OTHER THAN VOICE, THESE ARE 8-31-95 COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEMS THAT ARE CLASSIFIED, USED BY THE MILITARY. AND I NOW HAVE A CONSULTING ORGANIZATION, WHICH I AM THE ONLY MEMBER OF, WHERE FROM TIME TO TIME I AM CALLED ON TO REFRESH PEOPLE'S MEMORY AS TO HOW THE HARDWARE OPERATED, LET'S SAY, DURING VIETNAM. Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, HAVE YOU PREPARED A PHYSICAL LAYOUT OF THE LOCATION OF PACIFIC PAIN CENTER? A YES, I HAVE A FLOOR PLAN. Q A FLOOR PLAN, YES. AND IS THAT WHAT WE'VE CIRCULATED TO THE COUNCIL? A I HOPE SO, YES. Q YOU GAVE TO ME AND I CIRCULATED IT, SO I ASSUME IT'S THE SAME THING. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT IT SHOWS HERE? A ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO IN THE FRONT ENTRANCE, WHICH HAS A LARGE VERANDA THAT MUST BE ABOUT 30 FEET DEEP ON THE SECOND FLOOR. I MEAN, THE VERANDA ACROSS -- NOT ACROSS THE FRONT, BUT ACTUALLY DEEP TO THE RAILING IS ABOUT 30 FEET. LET ME PREFACE THIS BY SAYING SOMETHING THAT MIGHT HAVE CAUSED SOME CONFUSION AS FAR AS THE FRONT AND BACK DOORS ARE CONCERNED. AND WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY IS THAT THE LANDLORD EXPERIENCED SOME LEAKAGE ON THE PATRONS, ON THE RENTERS BELOW. THIS IS A BRICK VENEER VERANDA. AND ALL THE BRICK VENEER WAS RIPPED UP AND REMOVED -- RIPPED UP WITH THEIR HAMMER AND REMOVED. AND THIS IS WHAT CAUSED THE BUSINESS TO POST SIGNS, "PLEASE COME TO THE REAR OF THE BUSINESS," BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT ENTER -- THAT THERE WAS WET CEMENT. AND IT WAS JUST ROPED OFF. AND THIS WENT ON FOR PERHAPS -- WELL, MAYBE FIVE WEEKS. SO THIS IS MAYBE WHERE SOME OF THE CONFUSION STARTED HAVING PEOPLE IN THE REAR DOOR AND PEOPLE IN THE FRONT DOOR. UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS THE CASE. SO LET'S GO TO THE FRONT ENTRANCE, WHICH IS A WAITING ROOM. BY THE WAY, THIS WAS A DOCTOR'S OFFICE ORIGINALLY, VERY WELL -- THE INTERIORS, THE WALLPAPER MUST HAVE BEEN CUSTOM WALLPAPER, VERY NICELY, VERY TASTEFULLY DONE, VERY CLEAN, FULLY CARPETED, ALL NEW PAINT. IT WAS EXQUISITE -- IS EXQUISITE. SO YOU COME IN THE FRONT DOOR. AND JUST AS YOU TURN THERE IS A GRILL WORK, A GRILL WORK NEXT TO THE PLANTS THAT ARE ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE. AND THIS IS WHERE YOU'RE GREETED GENERALLY BY A RECEPTIONIST. THEN THERE IS A -- THE FRONT DOOR IS ALWAYS OPEN DURING BUSINESS HOURS. THEN THERE IS A LOCKED SECOND DOOR THAT ENTERS INTO A HALLWAY. THEN THERE IS AN ENTRY ON THE -- GOING DOWN THE HALLWAY THAT IS ACTUALLY IN THE OFFICE AREA. WHERE IT SAYS, "STORAGE," RIGHT BEHIND THAT, DETECTIVE MULLINS REFERRED TO THERE AS BEING A MATTRESS. WELL, WHAT THERE ACTUALLY IS THERE IS A HALF-INCH SHEET OF FOAM RUBBER ON TOP OF THE CARPETING, AN ELECTRIC BLANKET, WHICH LOOKS LIKE A MATTRESS PAD THAT IS MADE IN KOREA, WHICH IS VERY UNIQUE TO THE WAY ELECTRIC BLANKETS ARE MADE. AND ON TOP OF THAT, ANOTHER QUILTED MATTRESS PAD, WHICH IS MAYBE A QUARTER OF AN INCH THICK. THIS AREA IS GENERALLY USED FOR PEOPLE OR THE TECHNICIANS THAT ARE NOT FEELING GOOD. THEY WANT TO BE SOMEWHAT ISOLATED. THEY WANT TO PERHAPS REST A LITTLE BIT LONGER, AND THAT I S WHERE THEY CAN GO FOR THIS ACCOMMODATION. I SO WE HAVE "A," "C" AND "B" ROOMS THAT ARE ALL IDENTICAL. AND WHAT ARE IN THOSE ROOMS IS A TABLE WITH A DRAWER ON IT -- OR YOU COULD CALL IT A NIGHTSTAND, AND A MASSAGE TABLE, WHICH IS 32 INCHES WIDE, SIX FEET LONG, 24 INCHES HIGH. IT'S CONSTRUCTED OF WOOD, OF 2-BY-2 LEGS, I-BY-6 SIDES, THREE-QUARTER-INCH PLYWOOD ON THE TOP. ON TOP OF THAT, TWO-INCH FOAM. ON TOP OF THAT, SUPPORTED LEATHERETTE MATERIAL -- SUPPORTED, MEANING THAT IT WON'T RIP. ON TOP OF THAT.IS A SHEET.' ON TOP OF THAT IS A PILLOW WITH A PILLOWCASE ON IT. AND ON TOP OF THE PILLOW IS A TOWEL. ON THE SHEET THERE IS A TOWEL AND THERE IS A FOLDED TOWEL FOR THE CUSTOMER WHEN HE TAKES A I I I I I ~ ~ .oJ 1W.J........ i.1 . '. .;.... '... . 8-31-95 SHOWER. ON THE BACK OF THE DOOR THERE'S A DOOR HOOK. THERE IS A HANGER. THERE IS A ROBE. IT COULD BE A SEERSUCKER ROBE OR IT COULD BE A TERRY CLOTH ROBE. USUALLY IN THIS KIND OF WEATHER THEY ARE SEERSUCKER ROBES. THERE IS A PICTURE HANGING ON THE WALL. USUALLY ALL THE PICTURES ARE VERY NICE PICTURES. THERE IS A LARGE MIRROR AND A PLANT. AS FAR AS THE COSMETICS IN THE ROOM ARE CONCERNED, THERE IS A BOTTLE OF BODY LOTION. THERE IS A BOTTLE OF MINERAL ICE, WHICH IS A TYPE OF OINTMENT THAT IS LIKE MENTHOLATUM, ONLY STRONGER. THERE'S-- MR. VODNOY: DID YOU WANT TO -- MR. BROWN: I WAS JUST CURIOUS. I DON'T MEAN TO INTERRUPT YOU. WHEN THEY TAKE A SHOWER, DO THEY GO TO THE BACK OF THE THE WITNESS: YES. MR. BROWN: IS THIS WHERE THE SHOWER IS? THE WITNESS: YES. MR. BROWN: OKAY. I WASN'T SURE. THE WITNESS: MINERAL ICE, I THINK THERE'S SOME MINERAL OIL. THERE'S SOME KLEENEX. AND I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY OTHER COSMETIC OR PAPER GOODS IN THERE BESIDES THAT. THE ROOMS ARE LIT WITH EITHER A FLUORESCENT OR A TOUCH LAMP. AND YOU CAN SEE THOSE IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS. ALL THE ROOMS HAVE THE LOCKS REMOVED. AND I HAD GIVEN THE WATSON COMPANY A COPY OF THE CITY RULES SHOWING THEM THAT THIS HAD TO BE REMOVED. PERHAPS THEY THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO REMOVE THEM, WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN REMOVED AT THIS TIME. AND NONE OF THE DOORS -- NONE OF THE DOORS ARE LOCKED EXCEPT THE ONE FROM THE WAITING ROOM, THAT CAN BE LOCKED, AND THE ONE WAY AT THE END OF THE HALL, WHICH CAN BE LOCKED, AND THE REAR DOOR, WHICH CAN BE LOCKED. SO I'VE DESCRIBED ROOM A, ROOM C, ROOM B. ROOM 0 IS A ROOM WITH A MASSAGE TABLE, WHICH ISN'T A TABLE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE LEGS, BUT IT'S CONSTRUCTED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. AND THE PURPOSE FOR THIS IS SOME OF THE PEOPLE ARE ARTHRITIC; SOME OF THE PEOPLE HAVE BACK PROBLEMS AND THEY CANNOT GET UP ON THE TABLE. SOME OF THE PEOPLE ARE OVERWEIGHT AND THEY CAN'T GET UP ON THE TABLE. IN THIS ROOM THERE IS A SINK, AS YOU ICAN SEE IN THE DRAWING, AND THERE ALSO IS IN THIS ROOM A MICROWAVE OVEN FOR HOT TOWELS. AND GENERALLY THIS ROOM IS NOT USED, ~UT THE MICROWAVE OVEN IS USED FOR HOT TOWELS CONTINUOUSLY. SO PART OF THE TREATMENT IS A HOT TOWEL TREATMENT ALONG WITH THE MINERAL ICE. THE ROOM AFTER, BELOW 0, IS AN EATING AREA FOR THE TECHNICIANS. AND IT HAS A SINK IN IT AND IT HAS A MICROWAVE IN IT AND IT HAS A STRAW PAD ON THE FLOOR AND HAS NO CHAIRS. IT HAS A SMALL REFRIGERATOR THAT WAS NOT SEARCHED BY THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. AND IT IS JUST A SANITARY EATING AREA. ACROSS FROM THAT - - LET'S GO ALL THE WAY DOWN, THEN -- PARDON ME -- ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE ROOM AT THE REAR, WHICH HAS A DOOR THAT GOES ONTO A VERANDA THAT'S ABOUT THREE-AND-A-HALF FEET WIDE, AND THAT DOOR IS LOCKED. ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS IT'S LOCKED IS ANYBODY IN -- ANY CUSTOMER FROM "A," "B," "c, "OR "D" ROOMS IN FOR A TREATMENT GO THROUGH A DOOR, AND THEN THEY GO INTO THE SHOWER. IF THAT DOOR IS UNLOCKED OR IF THE BLINDS ARE OPEN, PEOPLE WALKING BY ON THAT VERANDA CAN SEE THESE PEOPLE GOING INTO A SHOWER, WHICH SOMEWHAT, I BELIEVE, INVADES THEIR PRIVACY. THE BATH -- THE MEN'S BATH, WHICH I'VE NOTED THERE IS -- WHICH I'M TALKING ABOUT, WAS SPECIFICALLY CONSTRUCTED FOR PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL BY THE WATSON COMPANY. WE ASKED THAT THERE HAS TO BE TWO BATHS IN THIS BUSINESS. AND THIS ALSO IS A HANDICAPPED BATH, SO IF SOMEBODY COMES IN WITH A WHEELCHAIR AT THIS LOCATION -- THERE IS AN ELEVATOR SO THEY CAN -+ FROM A GROUND FLOOR TO THE SECOND FLOOR. THEY CAN COME INlAND THEY CAN ACTUALLY USE THAT BATHROOM BECAUSE IT IS A HANDICAP BATHROOM, I 8-31-95 WHICH MEETS ALL THE SPECIFICATIONS. MAYOR HASTINGS: BOTH MEN AND WOMEN USE THE SHOWER IN THE WOMEN'S BATH OR THERE IS A SHOWER IN THE MEN'S BATH OVER IN THE CORNER, I GUESS? THE WITNESS: YES, THAT IS CORRECT. MAYOR HASTINGS: ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU. THE WITNESS: YOU CAN SEE WHERE THE WASHER AND DRYER ARE. AND RIGHT NEXT -- BEHIND THE WASHER AND DRYER IS A HOT WATER HEATER THAT'S IN THERE. AND THEN THE WOMEN'S TECH AREA IS ANOTHER ROOM THERE THAT HAS A BATH OF ITS OWN AND A SHOWER, A LAVATORY AND WHAT-HAVE-YOU. MR. VODNOY: I THINK -- DOES THAT COVER IT? THE WITNESS: I THINK THAT COVERS WHY THAT BACK DOOR IS LOCKED. AND I ALSO WENT AROUND ASKING THE TENANTS -- ON ONE SIDE OF ME IS A PSYCHOLOGIST. ON THE OTHER SIDE OF ME IS A SEROLOGIST. NEXT TO THEM IS A PERSON THAT SELLS LIQUID ENERGY -- OR MARKETS LIQUID ENERGY, WHATEVER. AND.NEXT TO THAT IS A PERSON THAT DOES SOMETHING WITH INDUSTRIAL INSURANCE. AND THEY SAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE THAT DOOR LOCKED. IT ISN'T -- THEY'VE GOT A DEAD BOLT ON IT, AND THE DEAD BOLT IS SLID BACK WHEN THEY ARE IN BUSINESS WITH BUSINESS HOURS OPEN, BUT THE DOOR IS LOCKED FROM THE OUTSIDE AND THEY NEVER OPEN THAT DOOR FROM THE OUTSIDE. SO THAT -- THAT SEEMS TO BE GOING -- THE OTHER THING IS, IF YOU NOTICE FROM THE PHOTOGRAPHS, IT SAYS, "PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL ACUPUNCTURE/ACUPRESSURE," ON THE DOOR. WHEN YOU COME IN, THERE IS A SIGN NOW THAT SAYS, "ONE-HALF HOUR $40, ONE HOUR $80." THEY DO NOT HAVE TO ASK WHAT KIND OF MASSAGE YOU GIVE BECAUSE IT STATES ON THE DOOR THAT THEY ONLY GIVE ONE TYPE OF MASSAGE AND THAT'S ALL THEY ADVERTISE. THAT'S ALL THAT'S CONSIDERED. AND IN TURN, 99 PERCENT OF THE TIME THE CUSTOMER SAYS, "I HAVE TO COME IN. I HAVE A BAD BACK. I HAVE A BAD SHOULDER. I HAVE A BAD KNEE. I HURT IT IN BASKETBALL. I HAVE A BAD LEG. WILL YOU CONCENTRATE ON THAT FOR ME?" YOU NEVER HAVE TO ASK THEM VERY MUCH AS FAR AS, "WHAT IS THE PROBLEM," OR WOULD THEY LIKE THIS TO BE DONE. MR. VODNOY: I JUST ASK, MADAM REPORTER, WHAT IS THE NEXT -- I FORGOT TO MARK THIS FLOOR PLAN AS AN EXHIBIT. THE REPORTER: I COULD GET UP AND LOOK. (PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS) MR. VODNOY: SO I'M GOING TO MARK THIS DEFENDANT'S A. MR. BARROW: GO AHEAD WITH A. (APPELLANT'S EXHIBIT A WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION BY THE CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER.) MR. VODNOY: AND MAY THE RECORD REFLECT THAT DEFENDANT'S A HAS BEEN DISTRIBUTED TO ALL MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL PREVIOUSLY. I'D LIKE TO SHOW WHAT I'M GOING TO MARK AS EXHIBIT B. I'M NOT GOING TO NUMERICALLY SEQUENCE IT. IT WILL BE B-1 RATHER THAN MAKING IT A SERIES OF EXHIBITS, IT WILL BE B-1, B-2 AND I'M GOING TO MARK IT ON THE BACK. (APPELLANTS EXHIBITS B-1 THROUGH B-13 WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION BY THE CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER.) MAYOR HASTINGS: MR. VODNOY, ARE YOU GOING TO SHOW US THE PICTURES, THE POLAROID PICTURES THAT YOU'VE TAKEN? MR. VODNOY: NOT ME. HE WILL. MAYOR HASTINGS: MR. YOUNGERMAN? ALL RIGHT. WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE THE VIDEO. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE VIDEO SHOULD BE BEFORE OR AFTER, SO THAT WE CAN HAVE SOME KIND OF COMPARISON HERE. WE NEED TO TAKE THESE PICTURES AFTER THE DOOR LOCKS HAVE BEEN REMOVED OR ALTERED AND THESE VARIOUS THINGS. I -- YOU KNOW, TO ME, IT'S ALMOST MEANINGLESS. MR. BARROW: IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO CONSIDER THAT ISSUE LATER. THIS IS THE PRESENTATION OF THEIR CASE. AND MR. I I I I I I i,' . tF\"':t ", 8-31-95 STEELE IS HERE WITH THE VIDEOTAPE. SO AFTER MR. VODNOY HAS INTRODUCED ALL THE STUFF INTO EVIDENCE, ALL THE PICTURES, AT THAT TIME YOU CAN MAKE A REQUEST TO SEE THE VIDEO. MAYOR HASTINGS: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN HE INTRODUCES THESE, MR. BARROW -- MR. VODNOY, DO WE LOOK AT THESE AS YOU INTRODUCE THEM? I'VE REALLY NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE. MR. VODNOY: I CAN TELL YOU THAT - MAYOR HASTINGS: WHAT'S THE PROCEDURE? MR. VODNOY: -- IF THE PENALTY I HAVE TO PAY IS THAT BY INTRODUCING THESE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THE VIDEO, I WILL NOT INTRODUCE ANY PHOTOS. MAYOR HASTINGS: WELL, I THOUGHT AT THE LAST MEETING, AS I RECALL, WE HAD ALREADY DETERMINED THAT WE WERE GOING TO LOOK AT THE VIDEO AT THE END OF THIS PARTICULAR DEFENSE HEARING. MR. VODNOY: I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT AT ALL. MR. BROWN: I DIDN'T EITHER. MAYOR HASTINGS: WELL, WE WERE GOING TO LOOK AT IT. AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE HERE WILL RECALL. AND I THINK - MR. BROWN: AS I REMEMBER -- MAYOR HASTINGS: I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT HAD TO DO WITH. IT HAD TO DO WITH THE MATTRESSES ON THE FLOOR AND IT HAD TO DO WITH THE MASSAGE TABLES. AND I VIVIDLY REMEMBER SAYING THAT I REALLY JUST COULDN'T -- I WAS CONFUSED AS TO WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE AND THAT I WOULD NEED TO HAVE THIS VIDEOTAPE TO SEE WHAT WAS REALLY THERE TO VERIFY WHAT EVERYONE WAS SAYING. AND WE WERE TO WATCH THIS AT THE END OF THIS PRESENTATION. AND I'M SURE OTHER PEOPLE REMEMBER. MAYBE YOU WERE NAPPING, GEORGE. MR. BROWN: THAT WAS NOT MY UNDERSTANDING. MY UNDERSTANDING WAS -- AND I'M MERELY STATING THE FACT, THAT WE OUGHT TO HEAR THE EVIDENCE. AND IF AT THE END OF THE EVIDENCE HE HAS IN A SENSE SHOT DOWN ANYTHING OR MADE IT SO HE WAS ARGUING WITH THE EVIDENCE, WE OUGHT TO LOOK AT THE VIDEOTAPE. AND HE PERSONALLY STATED WHAT -- AND I THINK HIS EFFORT NOW IS, TO LET YOU LOOK AT THE VARIOUS TYPES OF BEDS AND SO FORTH SO YOU GET A PRETTY GOOD FEEL FOR IT. NOW, THE PROBLEM IS, ARE THESE THE SAME SCENES YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN ON MAY 31ST AND JULY 6TH? MAYOR HASTINGS: THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT I'M MAKING. THAT WAS IT. MR. BARROW: MAYOR, AS I'VE MENTIONED REPEATEDLY THROUGHOUT THIS PROCEEDING, THE TECHNICAL RULES OF ADMISSIBILITY DO NOT AN APPLY TO THIS ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEEDING. SO I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT YOU ALLOW MR. VODNOY TO PUT ANY EVIDENCE THAT HE WANTS IN AND THEN YOU CAN ADDRESS THIS OTHER ISSUE AFTER HE'S DONE. MAYOR HASTINGS: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. MR. BARROW: I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT YOU ALLOW HIM TO PUT ANYTHING HE WANTS IN. MAYOR HASTINGS: OF COURSE, HE'S WELCOME TO. AS I ASKED YOU, I JUST DIDN'T KNOW IF WE LOOKED AT IT NOW OR LATER; THAT WAS MY ORIGINAL QUESTION. MR. VODNOY: BUT I NEED A RULING FROM THE LEGAL COUNSEL, THAT, IF I AM IN ANY WAY WAIVING MY OBJECTIONS TO THIS TAPE, WHICH I PERSISTENTLY AND CONTINUOUSLY OBJECTED TO, BY INTRODUCING PHOTOGRAPHS. I WILL NOT INTRODUCE PHOTOGRAPHS BECAUSE I HAVE NO INTENTION OF WAIVING EITHER EXPRESSLY OR IMPLIEDLY MY OBJECTION TO THE VIEWING OF THIS VIDEOTAPE. IN ADDITION TO THAT, YOU KNOW, MADAM MAYOR DID SAY WHAT SHE SAID SHE SAID. MAYOR HASTINGS: EXACT -- WHEN I -- MR. VODNOY: BUT THERE WAS NO RULING BY THE COUNCIL, NUMBER ONE. AND NUMBER TWO, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE CONFIGURATION OF THE MASSAGE TABLE BEDS OR WHATEVER ELSE YOU . WANT TO CALL IT, THAT IS NOT ONE OF THE ALLEGATIONS REGARDING THE BUSINESS. THERE'S -- WHATEVER THEY WERE WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THE CHARGES THAT ARE MADE HERE. AND I WAS SIMPLY HAVING THESE PICTURES TAKEN AS AN ASSISTANCE SO YOU CAN GET SOME FEEL FOR THE PLACE. BUT I HAVE NO INTENTION OF INTRODUCING ANYTHING THAT WOULD CAUSE ME TO LOSE MY OBJECTION THAT I'VE MADE EARLIER BECAUSE THEY ARE PREJUDICIAL MATERIALS AND THERE ARE ALSO OTHER THINGS ON IT. AND IN TERMS OF THE MUNICIPAL CODE VIOLATIONS, I WILL EITHER -- VIRTUALLY STIPULATED OR ACTUALLY STIPULATED, BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE AGREED THAT THE OFFICER TESTIFIED THAT THE DOORS WERE LOCKED. THEY WERE LOCKED OR ARE CAPABLE OF BEING LOCKED. I AGREED THAT THE BACK DOOR WAS LOCKED, IN FACT. I AGREED THAT THE SIGN WAS NOT UP AT THAT TIME. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE AS COUNSEL I'M SUPPOSED TO DO TO OBVIATE THE NECESSITY FOR HAVING THE TAPE, I WAS SIMPLY TRYING TO ASSIST THE COUNCIL IN TERMS OF SOME FEEL FOR THE PLACE BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE YOU, YOU KNOW, LOOKING LIKE I'M TRYING TO PREVENT YOU FROM LOOKING AT THE PLACE. HAD THEY TAKEN ANOTHER VIDEO JUST SIMPLY OF THE ROOMS AND SO ON AND SO FORTH, I WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT, BUT IT IS MY POSITION THAT I WILL NOT INTRODUCE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS IF BY DOING SO, I AM WAIVING MY OBJECTIONS. MR. BARROW: YES, MAYOR. TWO POINTS. FIRST OF ALL, I'M NOT THE ONE MAKING THE RULINGS HERE ON ADMISSIBILITY OF EVIDENCE. THE CITY COUNCIL HAS BEEN MAKING THOSE RULINGS THROUGHOUT THIS PROCEEDING BASED ON MY ADVICE AS TO WHAT THEIR OPTIONS ARE WITH RESPECT TO ADMISSIBILITY. NUMBER TWO, THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS AND THE VIDEOTAPE. YOU'RE ARGUING, ONCE AGAIN, THAT THE VIDEOTAPE SHOULD NOT BE SEEN. THAT'S FINE. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THAT ARGUMENT AND YOU MAY HAVE TO MAKE THAT ARGUMENT LATER ON TONIGHT IF THE COUNCIL WISHES TO SEE THE VIDEOTAPE. BUT THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS AND THE VIDEOTAPE. AND SO YOU ARE NOT WAIVING ANY RIGHTS BY SHOWING THESE PHOTOGRAPHS AND IT WILL HAVE NO IMPACT ON THE COUNCIL'S DECISION WITH RESPECT TO THE VIDEOTAPE. MR. VODNOY: THANK YOU. MR. LASZLO: CAN I RESPOND? IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE COUNCIL WAS GOING TO MAKE A DECISION AFTER WE HEARD EVERYTHING WHETHER TO VIEW THE TAPE OR NOT. THAT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING. MAYOR HASTINGS: NO. MR. BARROW: YEAH, THE RECORD -- WELL, WHATEVER THE COURT REPORTER HAS TAKEN DOWN. BUT THAT I S MY RECOLLECTION AS WELL, THAT YOU DEFERRED THAT ISSUE UNTIL ALL THE EVIDENCE HAS BEEN RECEIVED. MR. VODNOY: I'D LIKE TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED B- 1. AND I I LL JUST PASS IT DOWN AFTER -- MR. STEELE: AND I'LL JUST STATE MY OBJECTION FOR THE RECORD. ALTHOUGH I KNOW MR. BARROW HAS SAID -- BUT I'LL MAKE MY OBJECTION TO THE PHOTOGRAPHS ON THE GROUNDS OF RELEVANCE, FOUNDATION, AND THE FACT THAT THESE THINGS WERE TAKEN SEVEN WEEKS AFTER THE FACT. THE ISSUE HERE IS WHAT THE CHIEF KNEW ON JULY 6TH, AND THIS CLEARLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JULY 6TH. BY MR. VODNOY: Q FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS MARKED B-1 THROUGH B-13. WHEN -- DID YOU TAKE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS? A Q A Q A Q A Q DESCRIBE WHAT A BUSINESS. 8-31-95 YES, I DID. AND WHEN DID YOU TODAY OKAY. YOU DID NOT NO, I DID NOT. IS THAT RIGHT? THAT I S CORRECT. I'M SHOWING YOU WHAT'S THAT IS? THIS IS THE ENTRY FROM I I I TAKE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS? TAKE THE PHOTOGRAPHS ON JULY - BEEN MARKED B-1; WOULD YOU THE VERANDA GOING INTO THE I I I :.lr' " 8-31-95 Q WAS THAT ENTRY INTO THE VERANDA THE SAME -- A EXACTLY. Q WELL, LET ME FINISH THE QUESTION. I KNOW YOU KNOW WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY, BUT LET ME MAKE IT A FULL SENTENCE. IS THE ENTRY THE SAME AS IT LOOKED ON JULY 6TH? A JULY 6TH, THE VERANDA MIGHT HAVE BEEN RIPPED UP. I DON'T KNOW IF ALL THE MORTAR WAS IN THE JOINTS OF THE BRICK, BUT ESSENTIALLY IT'S THE SAME. Q I'LL PASS THIS DOWN. (PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS) BY MR. VODNOY: Q I' 0 LIKE TO SHOW YOU WHAT.' S BEEN MARKED B-2; CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT B-2 IS? A B-2 IS THE FRONT DOOR, WHICH IS IDENTICAL TO THE REAR DOOR, THAT SAYS, "PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL." AND UNDERNEATH IT IT SAYS, "ACUPUNCTURE/ACUPRESSURE." Q WAS THAT ON THE DOOR -- THE FRONT DOOR ON JULY 6TH? A IT WAS ON THE FRONT DOOR ON JULY 6TH AND IT'S BEEN ON THE DOOR PRIOR TO THIS TAKING PLACE. YES, IT WAS ON THE DOOR. Q JUST MAKE IT SHORT ANSWERS. I THINK IT'S MORE HELPFUL. NOW, I WANT TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED B-3; WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THAT IS? A B-3 IS IN THE ANTEROOM, AND IT SHOWS A GRILL WORK WHERE THE RECEPTIONIST WOULD STAND. Q NOW, IT SHOWS SOME OTHER THINGS; WAS THE GRILL WORK THE SAME AS IT WAS ON JULY 6TH? A YES, IT WAS. Q NOW, THERE IS A SIGN IN THE SORT OF THE UPPER PORTION -- UPPER RIGHT-HAND PORTION OF THE GRILL WORK, WHICH SHOWS A PRICE; THAT WAS NOT THERE ON JULY 6TH? A CORRECT, THAT WAS NOT THERE. Q AND TO THE RIGHT IT SAYS, "WE CAN REFUSE ANY CUSTOMER. " WAS THAT THERE ON JULY 6TH? A IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, YES. Q NOW, I HAVE B-4; WHAT IS B-4? A B-4 IS THE ROOM YOU COME INTO RIGHT FROM THE FRONT DOOR; THAT SHOWS THE FURNISHINGS OF THAT ROQM. Q IS THAT THE SAME AS IT WAS ON JULY 6TH? A EXACTLY, Q SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED B-5, WHAT IS THIS? A B-5 IS WHEN YOU GO THROUGH THE SECOND DOOR FROM THE WAITING ROOM, THE RECEPTION DESK THAT YOU SEE AND THE "SURGI" SCREEN IN THE BACKGROUND COVERS THE DOORWAY OF THE STORAGE AREA THAT IS REFLECTED IN THE UPPER, RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF THE FLOOR PLAN. Q NOW, WAS THAT AS IT WAS ON JULY 6TH? A EXACTLY. Q I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU TWO PHOTOGRAPHS MARKED B-6 AND B-7. THIS IS SHOWING THE DOOR ON THE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q IT DOES NOT HAVE A LOCKING MECHANISM? A IT DOES NOT. Q WAS THAT THE WAY IT WAS ON JULY 6TH? A IT WAS NOT THAT WAY ON JULY 6TH. Q JULY 6TH, THERE WERE LOCKING MECHANISMS ON THE DOOR; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q ALL RIGHT. SHOWING YOU WHAT'S MARKED B-8, WHAT'S THIS IN REFERENCE TO? A B-8 IS THE INTERIOR OF A TYPICAL ROOM, A, B OR C. Q ALL RIGHT. AND IS THIS -- THERE IS A MATTRESS AND-- A IT IS NOT A MATTRESS. 8-31-95 Q I'M SORRY. TELL ME WHAT IT IS. A IT'S A TABLE THAT HAS BEEN COVERED WITH FOAM AND A LEATHER-LIKE MATERIAL, AND THAT'S THE BASIS. THE FOAM IS A TWO-INCH THICK BASIS OVER THREE-QUARTER-INCH PLYWOOD. Q IS THIS OFF THE GROUND? I CAN'T TELL. A THIS LOOKS LIKE IT'S ROOM 0, AND THAT IS THE ONLY ONE -- THE ONLY ROOM WHERE THE TABLE IS LOWERED TO THE FLOOR. Q WAS THAT THE WAY IT WAS-ON JULY 6TH? A YES, IT WAS. Q OKAY. I HAVE A PICTURE MARKED H-9i WHAT IS THAT? A B-9 IS A TYPICAL ROOM OF A, B OR C, THAT IS A TYPICAL ROOM. AND AS YOU CAN SEE, THE TABLE IN THE BACK AND THE LAMP AND PICTURE AND THERE I S ANOTHER -- ON THE OTHER WALL THERE IS A MIRROR, BUT THIS IS EXACTLY THE WAY IT WAS. Q ON JULY 6TH? A ON JULY 6TH. Q SHOWING YOU B-10, WHAT IS THAT? A B-10 IS -- IS ROOM 0, WHERE YOU CAN SEE THE SINK AND THE MICROWAVE OVEN ON THE COUNTER OF THE SINK. AND THE SINK WAS THERE AT THE TIME OF THE RENTAL OR THE TIME OF THE LEASE IT WAS NOT INSTALLED BY PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL. Q SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED B-ll, WHAT IS THAT? A B-11 IS THE DOOR THAT OPENS TO THE WOMEN'S ROOM WHERE YOU CAN SEE THAT THE DOOR AJAR AT THE REAR IS A LAVATORY -- IS A BATHROOM. AND IF YOU NOTICE IT SAYS, "WOMEN," ON THAT DOOR. AND THE SIGN HAS ALWAYS BEEN ON THAT DOOR SINCE THE START OF THE BUSINESS. Q B-12? A B-12 IS IF YOU WERE TO COME THROUGH THE BACK DOOR OR COME THROUGH THE MEN'S SHOWER OR THE HANDICAPPED BATHROOM AND LOOK DOWN THE HALL TOWARD THE FRONT, THIS IS WHAT YOU WOULD SEE. THIS SHOWS THE HALLWAY ALL THE WAY DOWN. AS YOU NOTICE IT'S PRETTY SPACIOUS. THE HALL IS QUITE WIDE. Q AND FINALLY, THE LAST PICTURE, B-13, WHAT DOES THAT REPRESENT: A B-13 SHOWS THE REAR DOOR, SHOWS THE STACKED TOWELS, SHOWS STEEL SECURITY LOCKERS FOR CUSTOMERS TO PUT THEIR VALUABLES, IF THEY WISH. AND IT SHOWS THE BATHROOM DOOR AJAR WITH A SIGN ON IT SAYING "MEN." Q WOULD IT BE A FAIR STATEMENT TO SAY THAT YOU TOOK THESE PICTURES ON YOUR OWN WITHOUT MY SUPERVISION OR CONTROL OR ANYTHING ELSE? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT I SAW THESE PICTURES OTHER THAN -- A TODAY. Q THIS EVENING: A JUST -- BEFORE YOU CAME IN. Q THE ONLY PICTURE I SAW BEFORE WAS THE ONE TUESDAY. ALL RIGHT. NOW, I HAVE COLLECTIVELY MARKED EXHIBIT C,' A SERIES OF CARDS. - (APPELLANT'S EXHIBIT C WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION BY THE CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER.) BY MR. VODNOY: Q WOULD YOU DESCRIBE -- MR. STEELE: I'LL OBJECT TO THE INTRODUCTION OF THE CARDS ON THE BASIS OF, LET'S SEE, HEARSAY, FOUNDATION, AND IRRELEVANT BASED ON THE FACT THAT A LARGE NUMBER OF THOSE CARDS ARE DATED AFTER THE REVOCATION IN THIS MATTER. THE WITNESS: I CAN PROVE THAT THESE CARDS WERE PURCHASED IN BELMONT SHORE PRIOR TO THE BUSINESS OPENING. AND THEY WERE USED AS CARDS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THEY COULD BE FILED MUCH EASIER THAN A SHEET OF PAPER THAT HAD MULTI NAMES ON IT. SHEETS OF PAPER WITH MULTI NAMES ON IT HAS TO BE TRANSCRIBED TO BE ALPHABETICALLY FILED. IF YOU WANT TO KEEP TRACK OF THE I I I I I I 8-31-95 CUSTOMERS, YOU HAVE TO PUT THEM IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER. AND THESE CARDS SEEM TO BE CERTAINLY THE BEST WAY OF DOING THAT. BY MR. VODNOY: Q I HAVE HERE A SERIES OF BLANK CARDS, SO YOU CAN SEE WHAT'S ON THE CARDS. WILL YOU DESCRIBE WHAT'S ON THESE CARDS WITHOUT MENTIONING THE PERSON'S NAME? A OF COURSE. THEY HAVE CUSTOMERS THAT COME IN, THAT REFUSE TO MAKE THESE CARDS OUT AND WILL TURN AROUND AND WALK OUT. WHAT'S ON THE CARD IS "PACIFIC PAIN CENTER," WHICH WAS A MISTAKE. WE GOT THE CARDS FREE BECAUSE IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN, "PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL." THE NAME, THE DRIVER'S LICENSE, THE PHONE NUMBER AND THEN A SERIES OF QUESTIONS, OF HEARING PROBLEMS, COMMUNICABLE DISEASES -- Q HEART PROBLEMS? A PARDON ME -- HEART PROBLEMS, HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE, RESPIRATORY DISEASES, HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE. THEN A SIGNATURE, A DATE, A TIME, AND A PLACE FOR NOTES. Q AND WERE THE MASSAGE ACUPRESSURE TECHNICIANS TOLD TO HAVE THE PEOPLE, CUSTOMERS, COME IN AND SIGN THAT? A THE RECEPTIONIST IS INSTRUCTED THAT THESE PEOPLE SIGN OR THEY DON'T COME IN. Q NOW, YOU WERE NOT THERE ON JULY 6TH AT THE TIME THE POLICE ARRIVED; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q YOU WERE ALSO NOT THERE ON MAY 31ST? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q ALL RIGHT. SO YOU HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT OCCURRED OR DIDN'T OCCUR ON EITHER OF THOSE DATES A THAT'S CORRECT. Q DURING THE POLICE INVESTIGATION; IS THAT RIGHT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q YOU DID SPEAK TO ANNA LEE IN CONNECTION WITH A DISCUSSION THAT WE HAD ON TUESDAY NIGHT ABOUT, YOU HEARD OFFICER MULLINS -- DETECTIVE MULLINS TESTIFY ABOUT AN INTERVIEW WITH HER; IS THAT CORRECT? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND HE ALSO TESTIFIED ABOUT AN INTERVIEW WITH YOU? A THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND WITH RESPECT TO THE INTERVIEW WITH YOU, DID HE QUOTE THE CONVERSATION? A CORRECTLY. Q HE DID? A CORRECTLY. Q OKAY. NOW, WITH RESPECT TO HER, DID SHE HAVE A CLARIFICATION ON THE CONVERSATION? A CORRECT. Q WITHOUT WAIVING ANY MIRANDA OBJECTIONS I MAY HAVE MADE, WE HAVE A RULING THAT IT'S ADMISSIBLE, SO I'M -- THIS IS-- A I ASKED HER, DID SHE SAY THAT ALL MEN TRY TO RAPE HER. AND I SAID, "I HAVE TO KNOW THIS." AND SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T SAY THAT. I SAID, "WHAT DID YOU SAY?" .." SHE SAID, "OLD MAN TRY TO RAPE ME," AND SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE OLDER DETECTIVE. AND SHE SPEAKS VERY BROKEN -- SHE DOES NOT SPEAK SENTENCES. SHE SPEAKS WORDS, TWO OR THREE WORDS AT A TIME, AND SPEAKS BETTER ENGLISH THAN I SPEAK KOREAN. Q I DON'T KNOW IF I'VE MARKED ALL OF THESE CARDS COLLECTIVELY AS EXHIBIT -- WHAT WAS THAT, C? AND I WELCOME -- THE COUNCIL CAN PERUSE THEM, SINCE YOU HAVE 30 DAYS TO MAKE A DECISION. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO PRODUCE AS EXHIBIT 0, WHICH I'VE ALREADY CONVEYED, THE -- WELL, TELL ME WHAT THIS IS. THE POLICE HAVE COPIES OF IT. (APPELLANT'S EXHIBIT D WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION BY THE CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER.) . THE WITNESS: THIS IS JUST A FLIER THAT WAS AVAILABLE TO THE CUSTOMERS. IF,SOMEBODY COMES IN AND SAYS, "WHAT DO YOU 8-31-95 DO HERE,n THEY GIVE THEM ONE OF THESE, OR ON THE WAY OUT THEY CAN PICK UP ONE. AND IT'S JUST AN ADVERTISEMENT AS TO WHAT THE BUSINESS ACTUALLY DOES, WHAT IT ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHES, JUST SHOWING YOU WHAT THE BUSINESS IS. MR. VODNOY: ALL RIGHT. I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. MR. BARROW: COUNSEL, THE REPORTER WILL KEEP THOSE EXHIBITS IF YOU ACCEPT THE ADMISSION OF SUCH EVIDENCE INTO THE RECORD. SO THERE SHOULD BE A MOTION TO -- MR. VODNOY: YES, THANK YOU. I MOVE TO ADMIT "A," "B," "c" AND nD" INTO EVIDENCE. MR. BROWN: SO MOVED. MS. FORSYTHE: SECONDED. (WHEREUPON THE MOTION WAS UNANIMOUSLY CARRIED.) (APPELLANT'S EXHIBITS A, B, C AND D WERE RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE.) MAYOR HASTINGS: THAT PASSES, 5-0. MR. STEELE: GOOD EVENING, MAYOR, MEMBERS OF COUNCIL. GOOD EVENING, MR. YOUNGERMAN. THE WITNESS: GOOD EVENING. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. STEELE: Q MR. YOUNGERMAN, I THINK YOU SAID THAT YOUR EDUCATION AND YOUR EARLY PROFESSIONAL BACKGROUND WAS IN ENGINEERING; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q WHAT IS YOUR BACKGROUND IN PAIN CONTROL? A I DON'T HAVE ANY BACKGROUND IN PAIN CONTROL. Q WHAT ARE YOUR DUTIES AS CO-OWNER OF PACIFIC PAIN A ZERO. Q HOW OFTEN ARE YOU AT THE BUSINESS? A A MAXIMUM, I'D SAY, OF FOUR TO SIX HOURS A WEEK. Q AND HOW MANY DAYS IS THAT SPREAD OVER? A MAYBE THREE DAYS, MAYBE FIVE DAYS, MAYBE SIX DAYS. Q AND WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU'RE THERE GENERALLY FOR THAT SIX-HOUR PERIOD? A I MYSELF AM A VERY GOOD COOK, VERY GOOD COOK. AND IN TURN I MAKE BREAKFAST FOR THEM AND THEY ENJOY THAT BECAUSE IT'S NOT KOREAN FOOD. Q AND MS. GRAHAM, YOUR CO-OWNER, WHAT ARE HER DUTIES AS THE CO-OWNER? A HER DUTIES ARE AS RECEPTIONIST, AS CO-OWNER. Q AND DOES SHE GIVE MASSAGES? A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Q WHEN YOU FIRST STARTED THE BUSINESS, WHEN YOU FIRST APPLIED FOR THE PERMIT, DID YOU INTEND THAT MS. GRAHAM WOULD BE GIVING MASSAGES? A YES, AT THE TIME I DID. BUT MS. GRAHAM DID NOT QUALIFY BECAUSE SHE HAD ONLY 300 HOURS OF EDUCATION ON MASSAGES AND SEAL BEACH REQUIRES 500 HOURS, SO SHE HAD TO TAKE ANOTHER 200 HOURS TO QUALIFY. I MIGHT ADD THAT SEAL BEACH IS THE ONLY CITY -- AND GOODNESS KNOWS, I'VE ASKED A LOT ABOUT THIS -- THE ONLY CITY THAT ANYBODY KNOWS OF THAT REQUIRES $500 TO BE PUT UP FRONT FOR AN INVESTIGATION FOR THE TECHNICIAN, THAT IS NONREFUNDABLE, AND THAT'S THAT. MR. STEELE: I'LL OBJECT AND MOVE TO STRIKE THE LAST STATEMENT AS NONRESPONSIVE AND IRRELEVANT. MR. BROWN: SO MOVED. MAYOR HASTINGS: SECOND, CALL FOR A VOTE. (WHEREUPON THE MOTION WAS UNANIMOUSLY CARRIED.) MAYOR HASTINGS: 5-0, PASSES. BY MR. STEELE: Q ARE THERE ANY OTHER PARTNERS OF PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL? CONTROL? A THERE IS A DR. KIM, WHO IS AN ACUPUNCTURE, WHO WAS I I I I I I I . ~ -:" 8-31-95 GOING TO COME IN ON THIS, BUT UNFORTUNATELY HE DIDN'T WANT TO JEOPARDIZE HIS SOCIAL SECURITY, SO HE SUSTAINED. BUT HE DOES DO TREATMENTS THERE FROM TIME TO TIME. AND ALSO HE HAS INTRODUCED A WOMAN -- THESE ARE BOTH LICENSED BY THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ACUPUNCTURE DOCTOR, THAT I'VE SEEN JUST FOR A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. AND I DON'T KNOW IF SHE'S BEEN THERE OR NOT TO GIVE A TREATMENT. Q WELL, THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION, THOUGH. MY QUESTION WAS, ARE THERE OTHER OWNERS? A NO. Q YOU AND MS. GRAHAM -- A CORRECT. Q ARE THE ONLY TWO OWNERS? A CORRECT. Q DID YOU FILL OUT A BUSINESS LICENSE APPLICATION FOR THE BUSINESS IN NOVEMBER OF 1994? A I PRESUME SO. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DATE WAS, BUT I THINK IT WAS 1994, THE LATTER PART OF THE YEAR. Q OKAY. AND SOMETIME DURING -- AROUND -- LET I S CALL IT AROUND NOVEMBER OF '94 OR THE END OF 1994 WHEN YOU WERE APPLYING FOR THE BUSINESS LICENSE, WERE YOU GIVEN ANY COPY OF CHAPTER 12 OF THE SEAL BEACH MUNICIPAL CODE? A YOU'LL HAVE TO SHOW ME CHAPTER 12, PLEASE, SO I CAN IDENTIFY IT. (PAUSE IN THE PROCEEDINGS) THE WITNESS: YES. BY MR. STEELE: Q AND IS THAT THE SAME COPY OF THE SECTION I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT YOU TESTIFIED YOU GAVE TO THE WATSON COMPANY? A I THINK WATSON COMPANY HAS A COPY OF IT BECAUSE I HIGHLIGHTED IT FOR THEM. Q DID YOU GIVE THEM A COpy OF IT? A I SAY -- I BELIEVE THEY HAVE A COPY OF IT. Q I UNDERSTOOD THAT, BUT I'M ASKING IF YOU GAVE THAT TO THEM? A I HAD SEVERAL COPIES, WHETHER I LEFT ONE WITH THEM, I DON'T KNOW. THIS -- BY THE WAY, THIS CHAPTER 12 -- IS THAT IT -- IS AVAILABLE JUST FOR THE TAKING IN THE HALL OF THE CITY HALL RIGHT OUTSIDE. IT ISN'T SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR. YOU CAN JUST PICK IT UP AND WALK AWAY WITH IT. Q RIGHT. HAVE YOU READ THIS? A YES. Q HAVE YOU READ CHAPTER 12? A YES. Q I'M GOING TO REFER THE COUNCIL AND YOUR ATTENTION TO SECTION 12-9C OF THE CODE. AND I'LL JUST READ IT ALOUD. THAT SECTION SAYS, "A LIST OF" -- I'M SORRY. SECTION 12-9E OF THE CODE: "EVERY MASSAGE ESTABLISH,MENT SHALL KEEP A WRITTEN RECORD OF THE DATE AND HOUR OF EACH TREATMENT, THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF EACH CUSTOMER, THE NAME OF THE MASSAGE TECHNICIAN ADMINISTERING THE TREATMENT, AND THE TYPE OF TREATMENT AUTHORIZED AND ADMINISTERED. THE RECORDS SHALL BE MAINTAINED FOR A PERIOD OF TWO YEARS. ONLY THOSE OFFICIALS WHO ARE CHARGED WITH ENFORCEMENT OF THIS CHAPTER SHALL INSPECT THESE RECORDS AND THEY SHALL NOT USE ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED THEREIN FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE OTHER THAN ENFORCEMENT OF THIS CHAPTER." SHOWING YOU A BLANK COPY OF WHATiS PREVIOUSLY BEEN MARKED AS EXHIBIT C. NOW, IF WE JUST GO THROUGH HERE, WHERE ON THAT CARD IS A SPACE FOR THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF EACH CUSTOMER? A NAME IS UP AT THE TOP. THERE IS NOT AN ADDRESS 8-31-95 SPACE. Q OKAY. AND WHERE ON THAT CARD IS A SPACE FOR THE NAME OF THE MASSAGE TECHNICIAN ADMINISTERING THE TREATMENTS? A UNDER "NOTES." Q UNDER "NOTES"? A AT THE BOTTOM OF THE CARD IT SAYS, "NOTES." THAT'S WHERE THE NAME WOULD GO. Q OKAY. AND WHERE IS THE SPACE FOR THE TYPE OF TREATMENT AUTHORIZED AND ADMINISTERED? A UNDER "NOTES." Q OKAY. THEN SHOWING YOU THE FILLED-OUT COPIES OF THESE CARDS -- AND I'M JUST ASKING YOU TO LEAF THROUGH AND SHOW ME WHERE UNDER "NOTES" THERE WOULD BE A NOTE OF THE MASSAGE TECHNICIAN WHO ADMINISTERED THE TREATMENT? A THERE IS NONE ON THE CARDS. Q WHAT ABOUT THE TYPE OF TREATMENT AUTHORIZED AND ADMINISTERED? A THE CARDS REFLECT NONE. Q ALSO, SHOWING YOU THESE FILLED-OUT COPIES, WOULD IT HE A FAIR STATEMENT TO SAY MOST OF THESE UNDER "NAME" HAVE ONLY A FIRST NAME OR INITIALS? A I'VE PERSONALLY NEVER LOOKED THROUGH THE CARDS, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, AND I CAN'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION. SORRY. Q LET'S LEAF THROUGH JUST THIS ONE STACK. I SEE -- LET'S GO THROUGH HERE. SCOTT, ROBERT, PETE -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT SAYS, NICK, SCOTT, PAUL, MAYBE TOMMY, CARY, JOHN, TOM, HANK, GARY. WOULD IT BE A FAIR STATEMENT TO SAY MOST OF THEM ARE FIRST NAMES ONLY? A I'D SAY FIRST NAMES ONLY, BUT I THINK THE FIRST NAME IS COMPARED CERTAINLY TO THE DRIVER'S LICENSE. Q WELL, LET'S GO THROUGH THE SAME STACK THAT WE JUST WENT THROUGH AND LET'S SEE HOW MANY HAVE DRIVER'S LICENSE FILLED IN. I SEE AN "X" ON THAT LINE, AN "X", AN "X", AN "X", AN "X", THERE IS ONE THAT'S GOT A DRIVER'S LICENSE. A I SEE ABOUT 40 PERCENT THAT HAVE DRIVER'S LICENSE NUMBERS ON THEM. Q OKAY. AND THEN WHAT DO YOU, AS A PRIVATE BUSINESS PERSON, DO WITH A DRIVER'S LICENSE NUMBER? A ZERO. Q NO WAY FOR YOU TO GET THE ADDRESS OF THE CUSTOMER FROM A DRIVER'S LICENSE NUMBER, IS THERE? A NO, NOR AM I INTERESTED IN GETTING THE ADDRESS. Q WELL, EXCEPT THE LAW REQUIRES YOU TO GET THE ADDRESS, DOESN'T IT? A CORRECT. Q IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THESE CARDS AND PERHAPS OTHERS THAT YOU MAY HAVE AT THE ESTABLISHMENT ARE THE WRITTEN RECORDS OF THE DATE AND HOUR OF EACH TREATMENT, THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF EACH CUSTOMER, THE NAME OF THE MASSAGE TECHNICIAN ADMINISTERING THE TREATMENT, AND THE TYPE OF TREATMENT AUTHORIZED AND ADMINISTERED THAT'S REQUIRED BY SECTION 12-9E? A THERE WERE A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF CARDS THAT WERE NOT THERE WHEN I CAME THROUGH THE ESTABLISHMENT AFTER THE RAID. AND IN TURN THEY HAVE NOT HEEN FOUND. Q AND ARE THOSE CARDS DIFFERENT IN CONTENTS IN ANY WAY THAN THESE CARDS? A I DON'T KNOW. I CAN'T COMPARE THEM. Q WELL, THEY ARE THE SAME FORMAT, AREN'T THEY? A THEY ARE THE SAME FORMAT, BUT THE STORAGE DLACE THAT THEY WERE IN, THE BOX WAS EMPTY. Q WELL, LET I S ASSUME FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT THAT THOSE CARDS WERE THERE ON JULY 6TH AS WELL. IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THOSE CARDS THAT ARE MISSING, PLUS THESE CARDS, PLUS WHATEVER ELSE MIGHT EXIST ARE THE WRITTEN RECORDS THAT ARE REQUIRED UNDER 12-9E? A I CANNOT SAY WHAT RECORDS WERE THERE WHEN I HAVEN'T SEEN THEM NOR WITH RESPECT TO WHAT YOU ARE ASKING ME. I I I I I I ;. 8-31-95 Q WELL, ARE THERE ANY OTHER WRITTEN RECORDS THAT MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS OF 12-9E THAT -- A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Q OKAY. THANK YOU. REFERRING YOU TO 12-9C, I'LL READ THAT ALOUD. "THE LIST OF AVAILABLE SERVICES AND THE COST OF SUCH SERVICES SHALL BE POSTED IN AN OPEN, PUBLIC PLACE WITHIN THE PREMISES AND SHALL BE DESCRIBED IN READILY UNDERSTANDABLE LANGUAGE. NO OWNER, MANAGER, OPERATOR, RESPONSIBLE MANAGING EMPLOYEE OR PERMITTEE SHALL PERMIT THAT NO MASSAGE TECHNICIAN SHALL OFFER OR PERFORM ANY SERVICE OTHER THAN THOSE POSTED." THAT HAS ONE $40"? A Q A OFFICE. SHOWING YOU B-3, AND THAT'S THE PHOTO THAT SAYS SIGN POSTED ON THE MIRROR, SAYS, "RATES, HALF HOUR, NO MIRROR. I'M SORRY. WHAT IS THAT? THAT'S THE GRILL WORK THAT YOU LOOK INTO THE Q IS THAT AT THE RECEPTION AREA? A THAT'S RIGHT AT THE RECEPTION AS YOU WALK IN. Q "RATES, HALF HOUR $40, ONE HOUR $80," ANOTHER SIGN SAYS, "WE CAN REFUSE ANY CUSTOMER," AND I UNDERSTAND YOU'VE ALREADY TESTIFIED THAT THIS SIGN WASN'T ON THE PREMISES ON JULY 6TH? A THE RATE SIGN WAS NOT ON THE PREMISES; THAT'S CORRECT. Q AND WHAT ABOUT ON MAY 31ST? MR. VODNOY: I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO MAY 31ST. IT'S BEYOND THE SCOPE OF DIRECT. AND IN ADDITION TO THAT, HE WASN'T THERE ON THE 31 ST. HE WASN'T THERE ON THE 6TH, AS SUCH. THESE WERE DESIGNED -- I'LL STIPULATE THAT IT CERTAINLY WAS NOT THERE ON JULY 6TH. MR. STEELE: WELL, I THINK THAT THE LAW IS IN AN ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEEDINGS, THAT THE CROSS-EXAMINATION IS NOT LIMITED TO THE SCOPE OF DIRECT. AND I WOULD SUBMIT THAT YOU SHOWED HIM THIS PHOTOGRAPH. AND THE PURPOSE OF THE HEARING TO IS TO DETERMINE WHETHER THIS SIGN WAS THERE ON THOSE DATES. AND YOU ASKED HIM ABOUT THIS SIGN. AND CERTAINLY BE WITHIN THE SCOPE OF DIRECT, EVEN IF I WAS REQUIRED TO BE THERE AND -- MR. BARROW: MAYOR, THERE'S BEEN AN OBJECTION BY THE COUNSEL FOR THE APPLICANT. I REFER YOUR ATTENTION TO GOVERNMENT CODE, SECTION 11513B, WHICH APPLIES TO ASSERTING ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS. AND IT PROVIDES THAT EACH PARTY SHALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL AND EXAMINE WITNESSES, TO INTRODUCE EXHIBITS, TO CROSS-EXAMINE OPPOSING WITNESSES ON ANY MATTER RELEVANT TO THE ISSUES EVEN THOUGH THAT MATTER WAS NOT COVERED IN THE DIRECT EKAMINATION. MR. STEELE: AND I - - MR. BARROW: AT THIS TIME THE COUNCIL SHOULD MAKE A RULING ON THE OBJECTION. MR. STEELE: I WOULD ARGUE BEFORE YOU MAKE YOUR VOTE, MAYOR, COUNCIL MEMBERS, THAT THAT SECTION THAT MR. BARROW QUOTED CERTAINLY SAYS 'I'HAT AND SHOULD BE USED REALLY FOR YOUR GUIDANCE. I DON'T CONTEND THAT THE ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURE ACT OF WHICH THAT SECTION IS A PART ACTUALLY APPLIES TO THIS HEARING. CERTAINLY THE PRINCIPAL LAWS IN THE CASES -- IN A NUMBER OF WAYS, BUT THAT STATUTE GIVES YOU SOME GUIDANCE ON THE ISSUE. MR. BROWN: MOVE TO OVERRULE THE OBJECTION. MR. DOANE: SECOND. MAYOR HASTINGS: SECONDED. .. (WHEREUPON THE MOTION WAS UNANIMOUSLY CARRIED.) MAYOR HASTINGS: THAT PASSES 5-0. 8-31-95 MR. STEELE: THANK YOU. BY MR. STEELE: Q MR. YOUNGERMAN, WAS THIS SIGN ON THE GRILL WORK ON MAY 31 ST? A I DON'T KNOW. Q WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS: AS A CO-OWNER OF THE BUSINESS AND A CO-OWNER WHO'S TESTIFIED THAT HE READ THE CHAPTER 12 OF THE CODE, DID YOU EVER CAUSE A SIGN THAT'S DESCRIBED IN SECTION 12-9E OF THE AVAILABLE SERVICES AND THE COST OF -- A NO. MR. VODNOY: I THINK YOU HAD AN ANSWER BEFORE YOU FINISHED THE QUESTION BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE IS ONE, AT LEAST TODAY, SO PERHAPS WE COULD, YOU KNOW, ASK IT AGAIN. MR. STEELE: PRIOR TO JULY 7TH -- MR. VODNOY: PLEASE INSTRUCT MY CLIENT NOT TO INTERRUPT YOU. WAIT UNTIL THE END OF THE QUESTION AND THEN ANSWER. MR. BARROW: YES. SO PROBABLY THE QUESTION SHOULD BE REPHRASED AND GIVE THE WITNESS AN OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND TO THAT QUESTION. BY MR. STEELE: Q MR. YOUNGERMAN, PRIOR TO JULY 7TH, 1995, DID YOU EVER CAUSE SUCH A SIGN TO BE POSTED AT PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL? A NO. Q GOING BACK TO THE CARDS FOR JUST A SECOND, YOU TESTIFIED, I BELIEVE, THAT THE RECEPTIONIST IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HAVING THAT CARD FILLED OUT; IS THAT CORRECT? A CORRECT. Q AND YOUR CO-OWNER, MS. GRAHAM, IS THE RECEPTIONIST? A Q A Q BUSINESS WAS FILLED OUT? A IT'S POSSIBLE SOMEBODY MIGHT GIVE A CUSTOMER THE CARD WITHOUT HER KNOWLEDGE. IF SHE'S AT THE BACK OF THE ESTABLISHMENT AND THERE IS A CUSTOMER THAT'S WAITING, THEY WOULD OFFER THE CARD TO THE CUSTOMER. BUT I'D SAY GENERALLY SHE WOULD BE THE ONE. GENERALLY SHE WOULD BE THE ONE. NOT ALL THE TIME. Q HAVE YOU LOOKED THROUGH THE CARDS TO DETERMINE WHETHER ANY CARDS WERE COLLECTED ON JULY 6TH, 1995? A NO, I DID NOT. Q SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE IS A CARD IN THAT FILE THAT REPRESENTS OFFICER BOWLES? A LET'S SAY THAT WHEN I GO THERE, I KIND OF GIVE A CURSORY LOOK AS TO WHAT IS HAPPENING. I KNOW WHERE THE CARDS ARE KEPT. AND I CERTAINLY DON'T GO THROUGH THE CARDS BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW Tr THAT INFORMATION I'D BE LOOKING FOR WHEN I WENT THROUGH THE CARDS. AND OFFICER BOWLES, I DID NOT KNOW, SO THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR ME TO LOOK UNDER B, AND LOOK UNDER OFFICER BOWLES. Q ARE YOU AWARE OF THE REQUIREMENT IN THE SEAL BEACH MUNICIPAL CODE THAT A LICENSED MASSAGE TECHNICIAN BE ON THE PREMISES AT ALL HOURS THAT THE BUSINESS IS OPEN? A YES. Q WHO ARE THE LICENSED MASSAGE TECHNICIANS WHO HAVE VALID LICENSES FOR PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL? A THERE'S TWO OF THEM THAT WE HAVE LICENSES FOR. THERE IS ONE THAT I THINK THE LICENSE WAS JUST ABOUT ALL DONE, WHERE WE HAD TO PULL IT BACK BECAUSE SHE WENT OUT OF THE COUNTRY. AND THERE WAS A THIRD, FOURTH THAT WAS IN THE WORKS, THAT I WAS ADVISED BY DETECTIVE MULLINS THAT IT HAD STOPPED BEING PROCESSED ON. Q OKAY. LET'S TAKE THE TWO THAT ARE LICENSED. WHO ARE THOSE TWO AS -- WOULD THOSE HAVE BEEN AS OF JULY 6TH, 19951 A PARDON ME? SOME OF THE TIME. AND WHO IS THE RECEPTIONIST WHEN SHE'S NOT THERE? I DO NOT KNOW. SO IF MS. GRAHAM WAS ON THE PREMISES AND THE OPEN, SHE'D BE RESPONSIBLE FOR HAVING THAT CARD I I I I I I . ~ . ; 8-31-95 Q WOULD THOSE TWO HAVE BEEN LICENSED AS OF JULY 6TH, 1995? A YES. Q WHO ARE THOSE TWO? A I CANNOT GIVE YOU THE NAMES. MR. BROWN: 1995? MR. STEELE: 1995. DID I SAY '94? MAYOR HASTINGS: YOU SAID '96. MR. STEELE: I'M TRYING TO MOVE THINGS ALONG HERE. BY MR. STEELE: Q WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IF YOU DON'T KNOW DO YOU KNOW WHO THE WOMEN ARE MAYBE BY RECOGNIZING THEM OR BY FACE? A YES. Q YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THEIR NAMES? A YES. Q WERE EITHER OF THEM ON THE PREMISES WHEN THE BUSINESS WAS OPEN ON MAY 31ST OF 1995? MR. VODNOY: YOUR HONOR, HE'S ALREADY TESTIFIED HE WAS NOT THERE ON MAY 31ST, SO HOW COULD HE TESTIFY AS TO WHO WAS THERE? AND HE'S ALSO TESTIFIED HE WASN'T THERE ON JULY 6TH WHEN THE POLICE ACTIVITIES -- I'M NOT OFFERING HIM IN ANY WAY TO REBUT ANY POLICE STATEMENT AND I DON'T SEE THE POINT OF ASKING. MR. STEELE: I'LL WITHDRAW THE QUESTION. BY MR. STEELE: Q DO YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF WHETHER THERE WAS A LICENSED MASSAGE TECHNICIAN ON THE PREMISES ON MAY 31ST, 1995? A I DO NOT. Q HAVE YOU DISCUSSED WITH YOUR CO-OWNER, MS. GRAHAM, THE REQUIREMENT THAT A LICENSED MASSAGE TECHNICIAN BE ON THE PREMISES AT ALL TIMES WHILE THE BUSINESS IS OPEN? A I BELIEVE so. Q AND SO IS IT THE POLICY OF PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL TO HAVE A LICENSED TECHNICIAN ON THE PREMISES AT ALL TIMES? A I BELIEVE so. Q DO YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF WHETHER A LICENSED TECHNICIAN WAS ON THE PREMISES ON JULY 6TH, 1995? A I WAS NOT THERE. Q BUT IF THERE WAS TESTIMONY BY POLICE OFFICERS THAT THERE WAS NO SUCH LICENSED TECHNICIAN ON THE PREMISES ON JULY 6TH, 1995, DO YOU HAVE ANY BASIS FOR DISAGREEING WITH THAT? A I'M NOT ARGUING WITH THE POLICE. THE ONE THING I AM ARGUING WITH THE POLICE ABOUT -- Q I'LL ASK THE QUESTIONS AND I'LL TRY TO GET THERE, OKAY? PACIFIC A Q PAIN A Q A Q ALL RIGHT. HOW DOES -- HOW DO YOU RECRUIT THE GIRLS FOR CONTROL? I DO NOT. WHO DOES? MS. LEE OR GRAHAM. WHAT IS HER NAME, BY THE WAY, MS. LEE OR MS. GRAHAM? A GRAHAM, IT'S ON THE APPLICATION. Q AND IS THAT HER TRUE NAME? A YES. Q BUT YOU CALL HER MS. LEE? A SHE LIKES TO HE CALLED BY HER KOREAN NAME. I DON'T THINK THIS IS WEIRD. Q YOU DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA HOW SHE RECRUITS THE GIRLS, HOWEVER? A I DO NOT. Q MOVING ON TO THE THIRD PERSON YOU SAID THAT MAYBE -- I'M SORRY. MAYBE IT WAS THE FOURTH IN YOUR LIST, A PERSON WHOSE PERMIT WAS IN PROCESS AT THE TIME THE POLICE WERE THERE ON JULY 6TH, WOULD THAT BE CHONG SUK ANDERSON? A I DON'T KNOW. 8-31-95 Q ON JULY 6TH, YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE MULLINS AT THE POLICE STATION, DID YOU NOT? A NO. Q DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE MULLINS AT ALL ON JULY 6TH? A YES. Q WHERE WAS THAT? A IN THE PARKING LOT. Q OF THE POLICE STATION? A OF THE POLICE STATION. Q OKAY. DID YOU SAY THAT DETECTIVE MULLINS, AFTER HE HAD TOLD YOU THAT THERE HAD BEEN SOME ARRESTS FOR PROSTITUTION, DID YOU SAY TO DETECTIVE MULLINS AT THAT TIME ON JULY 6TH, THAT YOU HAD, QUOTE, "WARNED THE GIRLS ABOUT THAT"? A WERE THOSE HIS WORDS? Q THOSE ARE HIS WORDS. A YES. Q AND JUST SO WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME PAGE, WHAT IS THE "THAT" YOU ARE REFERRING TO? A STAYING WITHIN THE LAW. Q YOU MEAN STAYING WITHIN THE LAW AS FAR AS MAKING SURE THERE WERE NO LOCKS ON THE DOORS AND THE SIGNS WERE POSTED? A DOING WHAT IS RIGHT AND STAYING WITHIN THE LAW TO HAVE A BUSINESS IN SEAL BEACH. Q WELL, WOULDN'T THAT INCLUDE ALSO HAVING THE PROPER LICENSES AND PERMITS TO BE A MASSAGE TECHNICIAN? A CORRECT. Q DID YOU WARN THE GIRLS THAT THEY WERE TO HAVE THOSE PROPER LICENSES? A PERSONALLY, NO. Q WELL, DID YOU WARN MS. GRAHAM OR MS. LEE THAT? A YES. Q SO IF SHE DIDN'T FOLLOW UP ON IT, YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT? A I DON'T KNOW. Q AND IF SHE WAS ALLOWING THE MASSAGE TECHNICIANS TO EXPOSE THEMSELVES TO CUSTOMERS, YOU WOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT EITHER? A NOBODY, BUT NOBODY KNOWS WHAT GOES ON INSIDE A ROOM -- HAPPENING INSIDE A ROOM WHEN THERE'S JUST TWO PEOPLE THERE . Q WELL, IF YOU WALKED INTO A ROOM, A MASSAGE ROOM, AND YOU WERE SEEKING A MASSAGE AND THE MASSAGE TECHNICIAN TOOK OFF HER CLOTHES, WOULD YOU CONSIDER THAT IMMORAL? MR. VODNOY: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT. THE WITNESS: I DON'T THINK MY MORALITY IS TALKING. MR. VODNOY: I OBJECT TO CALLING FOR -- FIRST OF ALL, IT'S IRRELEVANT AS TO WHAT HE THINKS IS IMMORAL OR OBJECTIONABLE OR ANYTHING ELSE. THE CODE PROVIDES THAT IT'S THE CHIEF OF POLICE THAT MAKES THE DETERMINATIONS OF WHAT IS IMMORAL AND SO ON. AND HIS ATTITUDES ABOUT WHAT HE THINKS IS -- THERE IS NO SHOWING THAT HE WALKED IN AND SAW ANYBODY DOING ANYTHING. IN FACT, HE WASN'T AT THE LOCATION ON THE TWO DATES IN QUESTION IN TERMS OF THE TIMES. SO I'D SAY I'M OBJECTING ON RELEVANCE GROUNDS WITH RESPECT TO HIS FEELING OUT THESE ATTITUDES ABOUT MORALITY. I MR. STEELE: WELL, THE QUESTION IS WHETHER, IF THE CHIEF THOUGHT THAT THE COMMENT WAS IMMORAL, IMPROPER OR OTHERWISE OBJECTIONABLE, THAT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER MR. YOUNGERMAN KNEW ABOUT IT AT ALL. AND MR. VODNOY, ON CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CHIEF STEARNS, RAISED THE QUESTION ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF IMMORAL CONDUCT. AND I THINK IT'S RELEVANT TO KNOW WHAT THE OWNER OF THE BUSINESS THINKS IS IMMORAL CONDUCT. MR. BROWN: I MOVE TO SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION. MS. FORSYTHE: SECOND. MR. BROWN: YEAH, I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS WHAT HE THINKS. IT MATTERS WHAT THE CHIEF OF POLICE THINKS. . I I I I I ."f" . t.. c 8-31-95 MS. FORSYTHE: IT'S IN THE CODE. MR. BROWN: I MOVE TO SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION. MR. LASZLO: I'LL SECOND IT. MAYOR HASTINGS: CALL FOR A VOTE. IT'S - - WELL, 2-2 IS AN OVERRULING. THE CLERK: FORSYTHE, HASTINGS AND DOANE, NO. MAYOR HASTINGS: I'M SORRY. IT'S OVERRULED. (WHEREUFON THE MOTION WAS OVERRULED.) MR. STEELE: WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE THAT QUESTION READ BACK? MR. VODNOY: THE WITNESS: MR. STEELE: MR. YOUNGERMAN, WE'RE BACK TO YOU, AGAIN. YES, CERTAINLY. WOULD YOU READ MY LAST QUESTION BACK, PLEASE? (RECORD READ) THE WITNESS: HOW MANY TIMES A DAY DO YOU BEAT YOUR WIFE? MAYOR HASTINGS: HUH? MR. BROWN: THAT'S ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT NO MATTER HOW YOU ANSWER IT, YOU'RE WRONG. BY MR. STEELE: Q IS THAT YOUR ANSWER? A THAT'S MY ANSWER. Q "HOW MANY TIMES A DAY DO YOU BEAT YOUR WIFE?" DO YOU CONSIDER THAT TO BE IMPROPER? A DO YOU MEAN THE ANSWER IMPROPER? Q NO. DO YOU CONSIDER THE CONDUCT TO BE IMPROPER? A WHAT CONDUCT? Q GOING INTO A MASSAGE ROOM TO HAVE A MASSAGE AND HAVING THE MASSAGE TECHNICIAN TAKE OFF HER CLOTHES? A YES. Q NOW, MOVING ON TO THE CONVERSATION YOU SAID YOU HAD WITH MS. GRAHAM ABOUT HER CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE MULLINS, I UNDERSTAND THE -- WHEN WAS YOUR CONVERSATION WITH HER, BY THE WAY? A I HAVE A CONTINUOUS CONVERSATION WITH HER. Q OKAY. WELL, WHEN SHE CORRECTED THE DETECTIVE MULLINS INTERPRETATION OF THE CONVERSATION, WHEN WAS THAT CONVERSATION? A Q A Q A Q RAPE HER? A OLD, O-L-D, MEN, NOT ALL MEN. Q DID SHE DENY THAT SHE SAID SHE GAVE MASSAGES? A SAY THAT AGAIN, PLEASE? Q WELL, THE QUOTE FROM DETECTIVE MULLINS WAS THAT SHE SAID, "ALL MEN TRY TO RAPE ME," OR, "HE TRIED RAPE ME. ALL MEN TRY TO RAPE ME. I ONLY GIVE MASSAGES"? A I DON'T THINK THAT'S A CORRECT QUOTATION. I'D HAVE TO HEAR IT AGAIN, PLEASE. . OFFICER MULLINS, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, SAID THAT THIS STATEMENT WAS MADE TO HIM WHEN THEY WERE DRIVING BACK IN IN THE CAR AFTER SHE WAS READ HER MIRANDA. THIS IS NOT THAT STATEMENT. Q OFFICER -- OFFICER MULLINS -- WELL, YOU WERE HERE TUESDAY NIGHT, WEREN'T XOU, YOU WERE HERE TUESDAY NIGHT FOR THE SAKE OF THE RECORD? A I WAS HERE TUESDAY NIGHT Q AND DID YOU HEAR OFFICER MULLINS TESTIFY THAT AS HE WAS INTERVIEWING MS. GRAHAM AT THE SEAL BEACH POLICE STATION A HE DID NOT SAY THAT. Q OKAY, WELL, LET'S READ THIS. LET'S READ THIS IT HAD TO BE YESTERDAY, DIDN'T IT? I DON'T KNOW. WELL, IT DID. YOU TELL ME. IT HAD TO BE YESTERDAY. I UNDERSTAND THAT SHE SAID THE OLD MAN TRIED TO 8-31-95 SENTENCE OR TWO OUT OF WHAT'S PREVIOUSLY BEEN MARKED AS EXHIBIT 5, JUST FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING A RECORD. THIS IS DETECTIVE MULLINS' REPORT, "MOMENTS LATER WITHOUT PROMPTING SHE SAID, QUOTE, 'HE TRIED TO RAPE ME. ALL CUSTOMERS TRY TO RAPE ME. I ONLY GIVE MASSAGE. THEY TRY TO RAPE ME.'" AND IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THAT'S NOT THE STATEMENT YOU WERE CORRECTING? A THAT IS THE STATEMENT I WAS CORRECTING, BUT HE I SAID THAT SHE SAID THAT TO HIM IN THE AUTOMOBILE AFTER HE GAVE HER THE MIRANDA. AND SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT. Q WELL, MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, IN YOUR CONVERSATION WITH HER WHEN SHE CORRECTED THE STATEMENT, DID SHE DENY SAYING TO HIM, "I ONLY GAVE HIM MASSAGE"? A THAT WAS NOT MENTIONED. Q OKAY. YOU'VE PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED THAT YOU WEREN'T AT THE BUSINESS ON MAY 31ST, 1995, AT THE TIME THE OFFICER WAS THERE; IS THAT CORRECT -- THE TWO OFFICERS WERE THERE? A CORRECT. Q WERE YOU THERE AT ANY TIME ON THAT DAY? A I DON'T KNOW. I REALLY DON'T KNOW. SINCERELY, I DON'T KNOW. Q BUT IF AN OFFICER CAME BACK UP AND TESTIFIED THAT HE SAW YOU THERE ON MAY 31ST ABOUT 4:00 P.M., WOULD YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO DOUBT THAT? A WHAT DATE WAS THAT? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: THURSDAY. BY MR. STEELE: Q THURSDAY, I'M SORRY. A I DON'T THINK SO. I DON'T BELIEVE SO. I DON'T KNOW. I REALLY DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, AS I KEPT SAYING, YES, YOU WERE THERE, AND I'M SAYING NO, I WASN'T THERE. I MEAN, YOU KEEP I SAYING I WAS THERE AND I DON'T KNOW. I WASN'T THERE. Q I'D LIKE TO SHOW YOU A THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT. FIRST PAGE IS HEADED, "CITY OF SEAL BEACH POLICE DEPARTMENT, NOTIFICATION OF LICENSE OR PERMIT APPLICATION." SECOND PAGE IS HEADED, "CITY OF SEAL BEACH, APPLICATION FOR BUSINESS LICENSE." AND THE THIRD PAGE IS UNHEADED, BUT IT HAS TWO TYPEWRITTEN PARAGRAPHS AT THE TOP AND SOME HANDWRITING AT THE BOTTOM NUMHERED ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE. I'LL ASK IF YOU'VE EVER SEEN THAT DOCUMENT BEFORE? A YES, YES, I'VE SEEN THE DOCUMENT BEFORE. Q IS THAT YOUR HANDWRITING ON THE -- FILLING OUT THE APPLICATION? A YES, IT IS. Q HOW ABOUT ON THE THIRD PAGE? A YES, IT IS. Q AND THAT'S -- WHERE IT SAYS, "RESIDENCE ADDRESS, 63 SEA VIEW ROAD, SEAL BEACH, 90740 A THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, CORRECT. Q IS THAT -- THAT'S THE RESIDENCE ADDRESS YOU FILLED IN? A YES. Q AND I THINK YOU TESTIFIED THAT SEA VIEW ROAD IS IN THE TRAILER PARK; IS THAT CORRECT? A I BELIEVE SO. YES, IT'S IN THE TRAILER PARK. Q JUST SHOWING YOU A'BLOWN-UP MAP PAGE FROM THE I THOMAS GUIDE, (INDICATING) I THINK YOU CAN SEE HERE THE SEAL BEACH TRAILER PARK AREA MARKED ON THAT MAP. DO YOU SEE A NOTATION OF SEA VIEW ROAD IN THERE AT ALL? A WELL, YOU KNOW, AT BEST THAT TRAILER PARK IS QUITE A MAZE OF ROADS AND NAMES AND NUMBERS AND YOU CAN GET LOST IN IT VERY EASILY. Q WELL, I'M ASKING IS -- A I NEVER RECEIVED ANY MAIL AT SEA VIEW ROAD, BUT I THOUGHT THAT IS WHAT THE ADDRESS WAS. I WAS RIGHT ON AN INTERSECTION. I I I ." .' ',. -# t 8-31-95 Q AND YOU THOUGHT THAT WAS IN THE TRAILER PARK? A YES, I THOUGHT THAT WAS IN THE TRAILER PARK. Q BUT AGAIN, ASKING" YOU WHETHER YOU'VE -- YOU CAN ON THE THOMAS GUIDE THERE, SEE ANY NOTATION OF SEA VIEW ROAD AS BEING WITHIN THE TRAILER PARK? A I DO NOT THINK ALL OF THE STREETS IN THAT TRAILER PARK ARE ON THIS THOMAS GUIDE. Q SO WOULD THAT ANSWER BE "NO, n THEN? A NO. Q OKAY. ANY MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY EVER OWN PROPERTY AT LEISURE WORLD? A YES. Q WHO WAS THAT? MR. VODNOY: OBJECT. I OBJECT. WHAT'S THE RELEVANCE OF OWNING PROPERTY IN LEISURE WORLD? MR. STEELE: THE RELEVANCE IS, I'LL BE ASKING HIM IF IN FACT THAT RESIDENCE WAS ON SEA VIEW ROAD AND WASN'T ACTUALLY HIS RESIDENCE ADDRESS AT THE TIME HE FILLED OUT THIS APPLICATION AND IT NEVER WAS? MR. VODNOY: I'LL WITHDRAW THE OBJECTION. THE WITNESS: I WILL BRING TO THE CITY COUNCIL MONDAY OR TUESDAY A LETTER FROM A MANAGER OF THE TRAILER PARK SAYING WHERE I LIVED AND WHAT THE CORRECT ADDRESS IS. IF I MADE AN ERROR, I'M EMBARRASSED AND CHAGRINED TO BE IN FRONT OF YOU PEOPLE. I'VE ALWAYS HAD A HIGH GOVERNMENT SECURITY CLEARANCE. I'M NOT IN THE HABIT, NOR HAVE I EVER BEEN IN THE HABIT, OF LYING ABOUT ANYTHING NOR SHADING THE TRUTH HERE OR ANYPLACE ELSE, I'M TOO OLD TO DO THAT AND I'M NOT STARTING NOW. BY MR. STEELE: Q WELL, THAT'S FINE MR. YOUNGERMAN, BUT YOU NEVER LIVED ON SEA VIEW ROAD IN THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH, DID YOU? A I THOUGHT THE NAME OF IT WAS SEA VIEW ROAD. I 'LL LAY A LETTER ON YOUR DESK TUESDAY MORNING SAYING WHAT THE CORRECT ADDRESS IS, IF IT WASN'T SEA VIEW ROAD, AND I'LL APOLOGIZE. IT WAS IN THAT TRAILER PARK. IT WAS IN THAT TRAILER. I THOUGHT IT WAS SEA VIEW ROAD. I THOUGHT THIS WAS THE CORRECT ADDRESS. I WOULD NOT JEOPARDIZE THIS APPLICATION FOR SOMETHING AS STUPID AS PUTTING ON AN INCORRECT ADDRESS. Q WELL, IT APPEARS THAT YOU DID, MR. YOUNGERMAN. A THEN I MADE AN ERROR. Q ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOUR MOTHER REALLY LIVED ON SEA VIEW ROAD IN LEISURE WORLD AT ONE POINT? A NO. Q ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU WERE A PAST STOCKHOLDER FOR A PROPERTY ON SEA VIEW ROAD AT LEISURE WORLD? A NO. Q BUT YOUR TESTIMONY IS, THAT THIS DOCUMENT WHICH YOU SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY, THE BUSINESS LICENSE APPLICATION, YOU WERE MAKING A CORRECT STATEMENT? A CORRECT. Q THAT YOUR ADDRESS WAS 63 SEA VIEW ROAD? A CORRECT. MR. STEELE: OKAY. THANK YOU. NOTHING FURTHER. MR. VODNOY: I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. VODNOY: Q YOU SAID YOU DID HAVE AN ARGUMENT WITH THE POLICE ABOUT SOMETHING. WHAT WAS THAT THAT YOU HAD AN ARGUMENT? IN OTHER WORDS, YOU WEREN'T ARGUING ABOUT SOME OF THE STATEMENTS MADE, BUT WHAT IS IT THAT YOU WERE ARGUING ABOUT? A I THINK IF ANYONE ON THE CITY COUNCIL TRIED A BUSINESS IN SEAL BEACH -- SHOULD TRY TO REALIZE HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO ESTABLISH A BUSINESS IN SEAL BEACH. I HAVE LIKED THE COMMUNITY FOR MANY, MANY YEARS. I'VE LIVED VERY CLOSE TO SEAL BEACH, BEING LONG BEACH. ~N TURN, IN A CIVILIZED WESTERN 8-31-95 SOCIETY -- I CERTAINLY LIKE TO THINK WE ARE CIVILIZED WESTERN SOCIETY -- I THINK IF THE POLICE WERE THAT SENSITIVE ABOUT THIS BUSINESS, A WEEK OR TEN DAYS AT THE MOST AFTER THE BUSINESS WAS OPENED -- AND THEY CERTAINLY COULD HAVE FOUND OUT -- THEY SHOULD HAVE VISITED PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL AND SAID, "WE WOULD LIKE THESE CORRECTIONS MADE. WE FEEL YOU ARE NOT IN CODE. PLEASE DO IT IN SEVEN DAYS OR WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE FURTHER ACTION." THIS WAS NEVER DONE, NEVER EVEN ANTICIPATED. NOR HAS THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TYPE OF TREATMENT AND THESE TYPE OF SURROUNDINGS, EVER VISITED. I WANT TO SAY ONE OTHER THING BEFORE THE CITY COUNCIL MAKES A DECISION ON THIS. I WOULD CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THEM TO VISIT THE BUSINESS AND SEE WHAT KIND OF A BUSINESS IT REALLY IS. I GRANT YOU SOME OF THE WOMEN MADE SOME MISTAKES. THEY ARE HUMAN HEINGS. WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES AS HUMAN BEINGS. I DO NOT THINK THEY ARE BLIGHT ON THE COMMUNITY. I REALIZE THAT YOU PEOPLE ARE ELECTED BY YOUR CONSTITUENCY AND HAVE TO DO A CERTAIN ACTION. HOWEVER, THERE WAS NO WEAPONS FOUND, NO NARCOTICS FOUND, NOBODY WAS HURT, NO MURDERS, BUT EIGHT POLICEMAN FROM A STAFF OF ABOUT 55 SAW FIT TO GO TO 550 P.C.H., 207, AND TAKE OUT TWO WOMEN WITH HANDCUFFS. AND ODDLY ENOUGH, ONE OF THE POLICE OUT THE EIGHT SAID TO ONE OF THE LADIES, "I'M REALLY SORRY." MR. STEELE: IRRELEVANT. THE WITNESS: AND WAS A PATRON. AND WHEN THEY WENT INTO THE STATION, ONE OF THE POLICEMEN SAID, "I'M SORRY," AND HE WAS A PATRON -- MR. STEELE: IT'S ALL IRRELEVANT. THE WITNESS: -- OF PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL. MR. STEELE: ALL IRRELEVANT AND HIGHLY PREJUDICIAL. MOVE TO STRIKE. HEARSAY, BY THE WAY. MR. SHELVER: HEARSAY IS ADMISSIBLE, I'VE HEARD, MANY TIMES. MR. BARROW: ONCE AGAIN -- MAYOR HASTINGS: WE HAVE AN OBJECTION. MR. BARROW: ONCE AGAIN, THE TECHNICAL RULES OF ADMISSIHILITY ARE NOT APPLICABLE IN THIS PROCEEDING, AND SO YOU -- I'D RECOMMEND YOU LET THE EVIDENCE IN. MR. BROWN: SO MOVED. MAYOR HASTINGS: SECOND. (WHEREUPON THE MOTION WAS UNANIMOUSLY CARRIED) THE WITNESS: I HAVE ONE OTHER THING. THE POLICE DEPARTMENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE VERY SHARP IN OBSERVATION THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE TRAINED IN, IS OBSERVATION. THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG THINGS OF CRIME FIGHTING. AND THEY HAVE A HELL OF A JOB. THEY HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT JOB. I DON'T CARE IF IT'S SEAL BEACH, LONG BEACH;, LOS ANGELES. IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT, THANKLESS JOB, PARTICULARLY WITH A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON IN THE PUBLIC EYE TODAY. HOWEVER, THEY NEVER GAVE PACIFIC PAIN CONTROL ANY, ANY, ZERO BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, SAYING CERTAIN THINGS WERE THERE, CERTAIN THINGS HAD BEEN ACCOMPLISHED, THIS IS IN EVERY ROOM. THIS CLEARLY PERFORMS ONLY, IN CAPITALS, "ACUPRESSURE/ ACUPUNCTURE" SERVICE. AND THAT'S IN EVERY ROOM AND I KNOW IT'S IN EVERY ROOM BECAUSE I PUT IT THERE. MR. VODNOY: I'LL INTRODUCE THAT AS EXHIBIT -- EXHIBIT E, BUT I WANT TO SHOW IT TO COUNSEL FIRST. MR. STEELE: I'VE SEEN IT. IT'S ON THE VIDEOTAPE. SO IF YOU'D LIKE TO SHOW THE VIDEOTAPE -- MR. VODNOY: I DON'T WANT TO SHOW IT. MR. STEELE: -- IT WILL SHOW WHAT THE OFFICERS OBSERVED ON JULY 6TH. MR. VODNOY: I TAKE IT BY INTRODUCING IT, I'M NOT WAIVING ANYTHING -- MR. BARROW: YES. YOU ARE NOT WAIVING ANYTHING BY INTRODUCING THIS PLAQUE. MR. VODNOY: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, MR. I I I I I I ... 1...., 8-31-95 YOUNGERMAN. UNDER ORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES -- THE WITNESS: I WANT TO APOLOGIZE IF IT SEEMS LIKE I LOST MY TEMPER. I AM AN EMOTIONAL PERSON AND THIS HAS BEEN WEIGHING EXTREMELY HEAVY ON ME. AND I'VE NEVER BEEN IN A POSITION LIKE THIS. I'VE NEVER BEEN IN A COURT. I'VE NEVER BEEN IN FRONT OF THE CITY COUNCIL. I'VE NEVER HAD ANYTHING BUT A TRAFFIC TICKET, MOVING VIOLATION, IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. AND IT BOTHERS ME EMOTIONALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY THAT THIS IS TAKING PLACE. BUT I HAVE TO CONSIDER THAT PEOPLE DO MAKE MISTAKES AND I GUESS THESE WOMEN MADE SOME MISTAKES. AND I'M AWFUL SORRY ABOUT IT, VERY SORRY AHOUT IT. MR. VODNOY: I'M TRYING TO GET HIM OFF. MAYOR HASTINGS: WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO NOW IS -- THAT FRANK ASKED TO HAVE A SHORT RECESS. AND THE THING IS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE MR. YOUNGERMAN COME BACK AND,COULD WE ASK HIM SOME QUESTIONS. MR. BARROW: SURE, DEPENDING -- IT'S UP TO THE COUNCIL. MAYOR HASTINGS: IS IT ALL RIGHT? MR. VODNOY: I HAVE NO QUESTIONS. MAYOR HASTINGS: OKAY. MR. VODNOY: HOW LONG OF A BREAK DID YOU WANT TO TAKE BECAUSE I'M FINISHED. MR. STEELE: BEFORE WE BREAK, I JUST FORGOT TO HAVE THESE POLICE REPORTS MARKED. AND I'D LIKE TO HAVE THEM MARKED AS NEXT IN ORDER AND MOVE THEM INTO THE RECORD. MAYOR HASTINGS: ALL RIGHT. LET'S JUST HAVE A FIVE-MINUTE BREAK. (RECESS) MR. BARROW: OKAY. MAYOR HASTINGS: IT LOOKS LIKE EVERYONE IS BACK. MR. BARROW: OKAY. AND I BELIEVE THE COUNCIL HAS SOME QUESTIONS FOR THE APPLICANT. MAYOR HASTINGS: LET'S START WITH MR. DOANE. DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR THE APPLICANT? MR. DOANE: NO. MAYOR HASTINGS: MR. BROWN? MR. BROWN: NO. MAYOR HASTINGS: MR. LASZLO? MR. LASZLO: I HAVE A QUESTION. AND MAYBE -- IS THERE A SEA VIEW ROAD IN LEISURE WORLD? MR. DOANE: YES. MR. BROWN: AROUND 64. MAYOR HASTINGS: I THINK HE SAID 63, DIDN'T HE? MR. LASZLO: THAT WAS MY POINT. I WAS JUST CURIOUS. MAYOR HASTINGS: I HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS. THE QUESTION I WANT TO ASK YOU IS, YOU MENTIONED -- AND THIS IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF CURIOSITY -- YOU SAID THAT YOU HAD YOUR OWN CONSULTING SERVICE. AND WOULD YOU CARE TO GIVE ME THE NAME OF IT OR WOULD YOU RATHER NOT? THE WITNESS: I DON'T THINK SO. MAYOR HASTINGS: OKAY. IT WAS JUST A CURIOSITY. THEN EARLIER WE WERE TALKING -- YOU WERE ASKED SOME QUESTIONS AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ACUPUNCTURE, I BELIEVE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, AND YOU SAID A DR. LEE WAS GOING TO THE WITNESS: DR. KIM. MAYOR HASTINGS: DR. WHAT? THE WITNESS: KIM, K-I-M. MAYOR HASTINGS: DR. KIM. I'VE WRITTEN DOWN DR. LEE, BUT I GUESS -- OKAY. DR. KIM, AND YOU SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE PART OF THIS AND -- THE WITNESS: CORRECT. ; MAYOR HASTINGS: -- AND HE HAD -- HE DOESN'T -- THE WITNESS: HE THOUGHT IT WOULD CONFLICT WITH HIS SOCIAL SECURITY PAYMENTS AS FAR AS TOO MUCH EARNINGS. MAYOR HASTINGS: YES, THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE SAYING. YOU SAID THAT OCCASIONALLY HE DOES COME DOWN AND DO THAT? THE WITNESS: BUT I DON'T KNOW IF HE GETS A.FEE FOR 8-31-95 WHEN HE COMES DOWN TO DO THIS BECAUSE HE COMES DOWN WHEN THE OTHER ACUPUNCTURE DOCTOR IS NOT AVAILABLE. AND GENERALLY GENERALLY, I THINK THESE HAVE BEEN KOREAN PATIENTS, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT TYPE OF REMUNERATION COMES INTO PLAY, IF THEY SPEAK KOREAN AND SPEAK FAST, I CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE SAYING. SO WHEN HE SAYS COME OVER MY RESTAURANT AND HAVE DINNER, OR WHETHER HE REACHES IN AND HANDS OVER MONEY, I DON'T KNOW. BUT I DON'T SEE MONEY TRANSFER HANDS VERY MUCH. MAYOR HASTINGS: DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ACUPUNCTURIST WORK THERE AT THE -- OFFICE, AT THE FACILITY? THE WITNESS: I'D SAY MAYBE TWO OR THREE -- WELL, YOU SEE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT REALLY REQUIRE ACUPUNCTURE. AND THEY ARE HESITANT INASMUCH AS THEY DON'T LIKE NEEDLES. AND THEY GO THROUGH A STEP OF ACUPRESSURE, WHICH GOES TO THESE PRESSURE POINTS, AND THEN FINALLY THEY ARE CONVINCED THAT REALLY IT COULD BE BETTER IF THEY DID HAVE ACUPUNCTURE. AND MAYBE THEY MIGHT GET A COMBINATION VISIT OF ACUPRESSURE/ACUPUNCTURE. AND FINALLY COME -- THEY THINK THEY ARE GOING TO BE VERY MUCH HURT BY THE NEEDLE BECAUSE IT IS A LONG NEEDLE, GENERALLY SPEAKING. MAYOR HASTINGS: I KNOW. THE WITNESS: BUT THEY ARE SKILLFUL, EXTREMELY SKILLFUL. MR. LASZLO: CAN I ASK A QUESTION ON THIS ACUPUNCTURE THING? DOES THE CITY HAVE -- DO THEY HAVE TO BE LICENSED FOR ACUPUNCTURE? MR. VODNOY: I'LL GIVE YOU MY OPINION, AND THAT IS THAT AN ACUPUNCTURIST DOES NOT REQUIRE ANY LICENSE FROM THE CITY. IT'S STATE -- THEY ARE LICENSED BY THE STATE. AND THEY ARE -- THE STATE PREEMPTS THE LOCALS SO THAT THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT FOR ANY LICENSE FOR AN ACUPUNCTURIST WHO IS LICENSED BY THE STATE. MR. LASZLO: ARE WE ALLOWED TO ASK IF THERE WAS A LICENSED ACUPUNCTURIST AT THE FACILITY? MAYOR HASTINGS: YOU MEAN ON MAY 31 ST AND ON JULY 6TH? MR. LASZLO: I DON'T KNOW IF WE WERE ALLOWED TO ASK THAT. I I MAYOR HASTINGS: NO, THERE WASN'T -- NOW, SOMETHING I I'D LIKE. TO ASK YOU IS, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU IF ALL MASSEUSES ARE ABLE TO DO ACUPRESSURE OR IS ACUPRESSURE A FIELD OF ITS OWN? ARE ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE LICENSED, IF THEY DO NEED A LICENSE TO DO ACUPRFSSURE, ARE THEY ALSO LICENSED TO DO MASSAGING? THE WITNESS: THESE TECHNICIANS ARE LICENSED BY ASIAN TAUGHT SCHOOLS WHERE THE HEAD OF THE SCHOOL GENERALLY -- I CAN'T SAY ALL THE TIME BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ALL SCHOOLS -- ARE ASIAN, ASIAN INSTRUCTORS, WHETHER THEY BE KOREAN OR JAPANESE OR CHINESE. AND THEY GO THROUGH A - - I'VE SEEN THE TRANSCRIPTS, BUT, YOU KNOW, HOW MANY HOURS THEY DO OF THIS AND HOW MANY HOURS THEY DO OF THAT, I DON'T KNOW. BUT IT IS AN ASIAN FORM OF HEALING. MAYOR HASTINGS: I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT WHAT I'M REALLY INTERESTED TO KNOW IS, THAT A PERSON THAT -- ARE THE PEOPLE THAT DO ACUPRESSURE LICENSED TO DO ACUPRESSURE; THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING YOU? THE WITNESS: THAT'S ALL THEY GOT THE TRAINING IN. I MAYOR HASTINGS: DO THEY NEED -- I MEAN, ARE THEY LICENSED IN THIS FIELD IS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU; DO YOU KNOW? THE WITNESS: BY WHOM? MAYOR HASTINGS: WELL, ARE THEY LICENSED BY THE SCHOOL THAT THEY -- THE WITNESS: YES, THEY GOT A DIPLOMA AND A TRANSCRIPT. MAYOR HASTINGS: THEY HAVE A CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION? THE llITNESS: YOUR PROSECUTING ATTORNEY MENTIONED . IN CHAPTER 12 TFAT THEY HAVE TO HAVE 500 HOURS OF SCHOOL. MAYOR HASTINGS: I THINK THAT THAT WAS FOR MASSAGE, WAS IT NOT? I I I 8-31-95 MR. STEELE: IT'S ALL CLASSIFIED UNDER ONE HEADING IN THE CODE. MAYOR HASTINGS: THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO DISCERN. MR. STEELE: THE ACUPRESSURE AND MASSAGE, ANY TYPE OF MANIPULATION OF THE BODY WITH THE HANDS IS -- MAYOR HASTINGS: IN OTHER WORDS, THEN, A MASSEUSE CAN DO ACUPRESSURE WHETHER THEY HAVE BEEN -- WHETHER THEY HAVE A DIPLOMA OR NOT FROM A FACILITY THAT TEACHES ACUPRESSURE? WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS DEFINE HERE EXACTLY WHAT THE MASSEUSE DOES, EXACTLY WHAT THE ACUPRESSURIST -- THE PERSON THAT DOES ACUPRESSURE DOES, AND I KNOW WHAT THE ACUPUNCTURE PERSON DOES. AND I'M ASKING, ARE THEY CERTIFIED IN ACUPRESSURE? , MR. STEELE: WE REQUIRE 500 HOURS OF TRAINING FROM A -- OR A CERTAIN NUMBER'OF HOURS OF TRAINING FROM A SCHOOL OF MASSAGE. AND WE HAVE DEFINED MASSAGE AS, "ANY NUMBER OF SORT OF MANIPULATIONS WITH THE HANDS," COULD BE ACUPRESSURE, COULD BE SHIATSU, COULD BE SWEDISH -- WHATEVER IT IS, WE CALL IT, MASSAGE, AND WE REQUIRE A PERMIT FOR A MASSAGE TECHNICIAN. AND WE DON'T BREAK IT DOWN AS TO WHETHER THEY ARE PERFORMING ACUPRESSURE OR SHIATSU OR SPORTS MEDICINE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. IT'S ANY KIND OF MASSAGE THAT'S GOING ON. WE PROVIDE -- REQUIRE A CITY PERMIT. AND THE EDUCATION REQUIREMENT, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IN MOST CASES IS SORT OF A GENERAL EDUCATION IN PHYSIOLOGY AND VARIOUS SORTS OF FORMS OF THERAPY THAT THESE SCHOOLS PROVIDE. MAYOR HASTINGS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE CLARIFICATION. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, ALSO, SINCE YOU GO AND YOU COOK BREAKFAST THREE OR FOUR TIMES A WEEK, AND YOU HAVE ALL THE FACILITIES FOR SHOWERS AND RESTROOMS, AND YOU HAVE A STORAGE ROOM WITH A MATTRESS, AND THEN YOU HAVE THE TECHNICIAN'S ROOM . WHERE -- THE WITNESS: NO MATTRESS. MAYOR HASTINGS: -- TWO-INCH FOAM MAT ON THE FLOOR OR WHATEVER IT IS, DOES ANYBODY LIVE IN THE FACILITY? THE WITNESS: NO. MAYOR HASTINGS: THEY ALL GO HOME AT 10:00 P.M. AT NIGHT - - THE WITNESS: YES. MAYOR HASTINGS: -- AND THEY COME BACK AT 10:00 A.M. IN THE MORNING? THE WITNESS: YES. MAYOR HASTINGS: NOBODY LIVES THERE? THE WITNESS: NOBODY LIVES THERE. NOBODY'S GOT AN ADDRESS THERE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. MAYOR HASTINGS: WELL, THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO FIND THAT OUT. THE WITNESS: IT SAYS THAT RIGHT THERE ON APPLICATION FOR THE PERMIT, THAT THERE BE NO RESIDENTS ON THE - - MAYOR HASTINGS: I UNDERSTAND. BUT OFTENTIMES, ALTHOUGH IT STATES THAT, WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT DO TEND TO BUNK AT PLACES AT DIFFERENT TIMES. THE WITNESS: YOU'RE RIGHT. MAYOR HASTINGS: OKAY. WELL, I THINK THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY. AND I APPRECIATE VERY MUCH YOUR ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS. THANK YOU. MR. LASZLO: ON THIS 500 HOURS, IS THAT STANDARD OR IS THAT JUST IN THE SEAL BEACH MUNICIPAL CODE on IS THAT FOR ALL CITIES? THE WITNESS: IT'S REALLY ...:- PAP.:>ON ME. MR. VODNOY: THAT'S ONE OF THE rICST STRINGENT REQUIREMENTS THERE ARE. THE VARIOUS CITi3is RANGE FROM ANYWHERE FROM 200 HOURS. THE MOST I'VE SEEN IS 5("0' HOURS. DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION? MR. LASZLO: _ YES, THANK YOU. MAYOR HASTINGS: GWEN, DO YOU WoVE ANY. QUESTIONS? MS. FORSYTHE: JUST ONE. MR. YOUNGEmIAN, HAS THE . 8-31-95 FACILITY BEEN PERMITTED AND INSPECTED BY THE ORANGE COUNTY HEALTH DEPARTMENT? THE WITNESS: IT NEVER HAS. IT HAS NEVER HAD AN INSPECTION BY THE ORANGE COUNTY HEALTH DEPARTMENT. IT NEVER HAS HAD AN INSPECTION BY THE SEAL BEACH POLICE DEPARTMENT. IT HAS NEVER HAD AN INSPECTION BY ANYBODY FROM THE SEAL BEACH ORGANIZATION -- CITY ORGANIZATION, NEVER. I MR. STEELE: IF I MAY JUST CLARIFY -- I'M SORRY. MS. FORSYTHE: I WAS JUST CURIOUS IF HE READ SECTION 12 TO KNOW THAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE CONTACTED THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT FOR INSPECTION? THE WITNESS; THEY WERE CONTACTED. THEY NEVER SHOWED UP. MS. FORSYTHE: AND YOU NEVER RECEIVED A PERMIT FOR YOUR FACILITY? THE WITNESS: NEVER. MS. FORSYTHE: OKAY. THANK YOU. THE WITNESS: THEY SAID, "YES, WE'LL TAKE CARE OF IT," AND THAT'S ALL I EVER HEARD. AND I CERTAINLY DIDN'T THINK IT WAS MY RESPONSIBILITY TO CALL THEM BACK AGAIN. MR. STEELE: IF I MAY JUST CLARIFY, I THINK I PERPETUATED THE MISINFORMATION. IT'S NOT 500 HOURS OF TRAINING. IT'S PURSUANT TO SECTION 12-16D2 OF THE CODE. IT'S NOT LESS THAN 250 HOURS OF TRAINING. I THINK THE 500 NUMBER CAME FROM MR. YOUNGERMAN'S COMMENT ABOUT THE FEE, WHICH IS $500. THE WITNESS: I BEG YOUR PARDON BECAUSE THE DOCUMENT THAT I RECEIVED ORIGINALLY SAID 500 HOURS ON IT. AND IN TURN WE WANTED THE RECEPTIONIST TO BE A TECHNICIAN. AND I HAD A VERY LONG DISCUSSION -- I HAD A VERY LONG DISCUSSION WITH THE CITY OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME AND A LOT OF CORRESPONDENCE THAT SAID IT HAD TO BE 500 HOURS. AND I BELIEVE I HAD THAT DOCUMENT AT MY I RESIDENCE. HAD I KNOWN THAT THIS WOULD BE UP, I CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE SHOWED IT TO YOU. MAYOR HASTINGS: IS THERE ANYBODY ELSE THAT MIGHT HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS? I THINK, GWEN, YOU MAY HAVE HAD ANOTHER QUESTION OR TWO ON YOUR MIND? MS. FORSYTHE: I WOULD AT THIS TIME, IF THE ATTORNEYS HAVE COME TO THE CLOSURE OF WHAT THEY NEED TO DO, I WOULD LIKE TO REVIEW THE VIDEOTAPE. THE REASON FOR THAT IS THAT, ASIDE FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT GOING THROUGH THE MUNICIPAL CODE OF THE CITY OF SEAL BEACH, THERE ARE NUMEROUS WHAT I CONSIDER VIOLATIONS ON A VERBAL BASIS. I'M HEARING ONE SIDE SAY YES, I DID, THE OTHER SIDE, NO, I DIDN'T. I WOULD LIKE TO VIEW FOR MYSELF THE INFORMATION ON THAT VIDEO AND MAKE MY DECISION BASED ON THAT. MR. VODNOY: LET ME JUST SAY, FIRST OF ALL, SO WE CAN CONCLUDE, I WILL SAY THAT UNDER ORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES AT THIS POINT I WOULD HAVE PUT ON MS. GRAHAM AND I WOULD HAVE PUT ON MS. JO. BUT GIVEN THE FACT THAT THEY WERE FILED ON TODAY IN WESTMINSTER AND THEY ARE FACING CRIMINAL CHARGES, THEY HAVE ELECTED TO EXERCISE THEIR FIFTH AND SIXTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS AND HAVE DECLINED TO TESTIFY AND REFUSED TQ TESTIFY BECAUSE IT WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. I MAY BE WRONG; THEY MAY BE WRONG, BUT I'M SIMPLY SAYING -- BUT I'M RESTING AT THIS TIME. I'M NOT AWARE OF DISCREPANCIES BETWEEN -- I ADDRESSING MS. FORSYTHE'S COMMENTS -- I'M NOT AWARE OF DISCREPANCIES BETWEEN ANYBODY WITH RESPECT TO THE LOCATION ON THE 7TH. I THINK THE VIOLATIONS WERE THAT THE DOORS WERE CAPABLE OF BEING LOCKED. WE HAVE AGREED THAT THAT WAS SO. I BELIEVE THAT THE ALLEGATION WAS THAT THE BACK DOOR WAS LOCKED. WE HAVE AGREED THAT THAT WAS SO. I DON'T KNOW WHAT OTHER DISCREPANCIES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. PERHAPS IF YOU COULD TELL ME WHAT ',rHE DISCREPANCIES ARE, MAYBE I COULD RESOLVE IT BY STIPULATING TO WHATEVER IT IS YOU THINK THAT WE'RE SAYING THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. I I I 8-31-95 MS. FORSYTHE: I HAVE LISTED, AND JUST BRIEFLY, APPROXIMATELY 15 CODE VIOLATIONS BASED ON VERBAL TESTIMONY. I'M A VISUAL PERSON. I'D LIKE TO VIEW THE VIDEO. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS -- IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE OBJECTING TO THAT YOU FIND OFFENSIBLE, I PROBABLY WILL, TOO, AND WOULD NOT CONSIDER THAT. BUT AS FAR AS LOOKING AT PHOTOGRAPHS THAT YOU PROVIDED US THIS EVENING AND BEING ABLE TO SEE WHAT OCCURRED ON THAT DATE THAT THIS VIDEO WAS SHOT, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO THIS COUNCIL THAT WE REVIEW IT. MR. VODNOY: I CERTAINLY CAN'T STOP YOU FROM WATCHING IT. I'M SIMPLY TRYING TO PRESERVE THE RECORD.. I BELIEVE IT IS OBJECTIONABLE AND PREJUDICIAL ITEMS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS HEARING, HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHIEF'S DECISION. IT WOULD ONLY INFLAME THIS COUNCIL. AND I HAVE SOUGHT TO ACKNOWLEDGE RESPONSIBILITY FOR VIOLATIONS WHENEVER I FELT THAT IT WAS APPROPRIATE AND HAVE NOT SERIOUSLY CONTESTED BECAUSE I CAN'T -- A NUMBER OF THE ALLEGATIONS OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE WITNESSES TO DO SO. I'VE PUT ON MR. YOUNGERMAN TO LET YOU KNOW HOW IT IS. AND AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, HE GAVE MY CLOSING ARGUMENT. I HAVE RAISED ALL THE LEGAL POINTS THAT I THINK I NEED TO RAISE. AND, YOU KNOW, YOU OBVIOUSLY CAN WATCH OR NOT WATCH AND I'M CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO STAND IN FRONT OF THE TELEVISION AND HAVE TO BE DRAGGED AWAY. BUT I'M SIMPLY SAYING THAT I THINK IT'S HIGHLY PREJUDICIAL. I HAVE VIEWED IT AND I KNOW WHAT IT IS. AND I KNOW IT'S FRUSTRATING FOR YOU, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW AND I CAN ONLY REPRESENT. I DON'T KNOW IF I'M OFFICER OF THIS COURT OR NOT, BUT AS A MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING OF THE STATE BAR FOR 34 YEARS AND ON A CONTINUOUS BASIS, THAT I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE PREJUDICIAL MATERIALS ON THIS TAPE THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS HEARING. AND THAT IS, THAT AS A HUMAN BEING -- AND I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND -- THAT THIS WILL INFLAME YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO VOTE IN A MANNER THAT I THINK WOULD BE INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE'VE PRESENTED HERE TODAY. MR. BROWN: MADAM MAYOR, CAN I MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT THE 'SUGGESTION? MAYOR HASTINGS: SURE. MR. BROWN: OKAY. I -- I HAVE HEARD PRETTY MUCH ALL THE EVIDENCE. AND BY THE FACT -- I MAY HAVE BEEN ASLEEP OCCASIONALLY -- BUT I THINK COUNSEL HAS INDICATED THAT THE DOORS WERE LOCKED. THERE WERE NO SIGNS UP. HE ENUMERATED MOST OF THE THINGS THAT WE WERE TRYING TO LOOK FROM AN ADMINISTRATIVE THING. I HAVE A FEELING THAT LOCKING THE BACK DOOR, IF I WERE IN THAT SAME SPOT, I WOULD BE GIVING THAT SOME SPOT. BUT I THINK I WOULD HAVE TAKEN DIFFERENT ACTION. I THINK I WOULD HAVE TAKEN TO THE PLANNING COMMISSIONS THAT, YES, THAT'S A PROBLEM, AND NOT SIMPLY LOCKED THE DOOR AND IGNORE THE CODE. MR. YOUNGERMAN STATED THAT HE HAD ZERO DUTIES THERE. HE SAID HE'S NEVER LOOKED AT THE RECORDS AND A WHOLE VARIETY OF THINGS. AND YET HE WANTS ME TO BELIEVE THAT NOW THAT THEY'VE CHANGED. THE LOCKS AND THEY'VE PUT A SIGN UP, THAT HE'S GOING TO SEE THAT THOSE THINGS CONTINUE IN THE FUTURE. NOW, I HAVE ZERO CONFIDENCE, AS YOU HAVE ZERO TIME TO SPEND THERE, I HAVE ZERO CONFIDENCE THAT THAT WOULD HAPPEN. IN ADDITION, THE OTHER ISSUES THERE APPEAR NOT TO BE A LICENSED TECHNICIAN ON THE PREMISE. AND I THINK THAT'S JUST HEARSAY, BUT AGAIN, I'M COMFORTABLE WITH THAT. I BELIEVE THERE IS ONE OUNCE OF EVIDENCE DISREGARDING ANY CRIMINAL THING WE MIGHT SEE UP THERE AND THAT WILL BE HANDLED BY A CRIMINAL COURT. BUT I THINK THERE IS AN ABUNDANCE OF EVI.DENCE ADMITTED TO AS TO THE ADMINISTRATIVE VIOLATIONS. AND I'D LIKE TO MOVE AT THIS TIME THAT A STAFF RETURN WITH A RESOLUTION AFFIRMING THE CITY, THE POLICE CHIEF. MS. FORSYTHE: I'LL SECOND THAT. . MR. BARROW: BEFORE THE COUNCIL VOTES ON THIS, THERE IS A FEW HOUSEKEEPING MATTERS. I DON'T BELIEVE THE PUBLIC . 8-31-95 TESTIMONY PORTION OF THIS HEARING HAS HEEN CLOSED. MR. BROWN: OKAY. SORRY ABOUT THAT. MR. BARROW: AND SO IF IT'S PART OF YOUR MOTION MR. BROWN: I MOVE THE TESTIMONY BE CLOSED AND CONTINUE WITH THE MOTION. MR. BARROW: MOVE THAT THE - - I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU MOVE THAT THE HEARING BE CLOSED. BUT BEFORE WE DO THAT, A FEW I THINGS NEED TO BE SAID. THERE ARE A NUMHER OF EXHIBITS INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE ON BOTH SIDES. MR. STEELE HAD A NUMBER OF EXHIBITS AND MR. VODNOY ALSO HAD A NUMHER OF EXHIBITS. I'VE TALKED TO THE COURT REPORTER. SHE WOULD LIKE TO BE RELIEVED OF THE DUTY TO BE THE CUSTODIAN OF THE GRAPHIC EVIDENCE, OF THE PHOTOS, WHICH ARE B-1 TO B-13, THE CARDS, WHICH ARE C, AND THE PLAQUE, WHICH IS E. AND IF THE COUNCIL CAN STIPULATE ON THE RECORD THAT THE CITY CLERK WILL BE THE CUSTODIAN OF THOSE PIECES OF EVIDENCE -- MR. VODNOY: SO STIPULATED. MR. STEELE: SO STIPULATED. MR. BARROW: OKAY. AND SO THE REPORTER IS RELIEVED OF THAT IJUTY. I THINK AT THIS POINT THAT'S THE ONLY THING I WANTED TO BRING UP. IF WE CAN -- YOU CAN ACT ON YOUR MOTION, WHICH WAS FIRST CLOSING THE HEARING. DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THAT FIRST? MR. BROWN: LET'S DO THAT FIRST. I MOVE WE CLOSE THE HEARING. MAYOR HASTINGS; SECOND. (WHEREUPON THE MOTION WAS UNANIMOUSLY CARRIED.) MAYOR HASTINGS: THAT PASSED 5-0. MR. HROWN: BASED UPON THE MOTION I MADE EARLIER, I'M GOING TO MAKE A MOTION TO DIRECT THE STAFF TO RETURN WITH A I RESOLUTION AFFIRMING THE DECISION OF THE POLICE CHIEF. MS. FORSYTHE: I'LL SECOND THAT. (WHEREUPON THE MOTION WAS UNANIMOUSLY CARRIED.) MAYOR HASTINGS: THAT PASSES 5-0. MR. BARROW: OKAY. THE CITY COUNCIL HAS 30 DAYS TO MAKE THE DECISION. STAFF WILL COME BACK WITH A DRAFT RESOLUTION FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION. WE HAVE TWO CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS IN SEPTEMHER. JACK, DO YOU HAVE YOUR CALENDAR? MAYOR HASTINGS: THE 11TH AND THE -- MR. STEELE: I'M UNAVAILABLE ON THE 11TH. MR. BARROW: I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THE COUNCIL DIRECT STAFF TO COME BACK ON THE 25TH FOR THE RESOLUTION, THEN, FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION. IS THAT SO ORDERED, THE 25TH, SEPTEMBER 25TH? MAYOR HASTINGS: YES, PLEASE. MR. VODNOY: WHAT TIME IS THAT HEARING? MR. BARROW: THAT WILL BE A'1: 7:00 O'CLOCK. IT'S A MONDAY NIGHT, 7:00 O'CLOCK -- WHAT'S THE DATE AGAIN? MAYOR HASTINGS: THE 25TH, SEPTEMBER 25TH. MR. BARROW: SEPTEMBER 25TH. MAYOR HASTINGS: THAT'S WHEN THE MEETING STARTS, MR. VODNOY. AND THE THING IS, THAT THE HEARING MAY BE A LITTLE PUBLIC HEARING, IS THAT WHAT IT IS OR -- MR. BARROW: AT THIS POINT THE PUBLIC HEARING ISN'T CLOSED. I MAYOR HASTINGS: BUT WHAT IS IT NOW, THEN, THE RESOLUTION? MR. BARROW: RIGHT. APPLICANT AND HIS COUNSEL WILL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO COMMENT ON THE CONTENTS OF THE RESOLUTION, BUT THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER TESTIMONY. MAYOR HASTINGS: AT THE TIME OF THEIR COMMENTS, WILL THEY PULL THIS -- I MEAN, WILL THIS BE AGENDIZED IN THE CONSENT CALENDAR? MR. BARROW: YES. MAYOR HASTINGS: THEN THEY WILL PULL THIS ITEM FROM THE CONSENT CALENDAR? I I I , " 8-31-95 I 9-11-95 MR. BARROW: IF THEY WANT TO. MAYOR HASTINGS: IF THEY WANT TO, AND THEY'LL MAKE COMMENTS AT THAT TIME? MR. BARROW: YOU'LL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY -- 'THE WAY A CITY COUNCIL MEETING TAKES PLACE, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MEETING THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PUBLIC TO COMMENT ON ANY ITEM ON THE AGENDA AND TO REQUEST THAT CERTAIN ITEMS BE PULLED FROM THE CONSENT CALENDAR. AND SO THAT USUALLY HAPPENS ABOUT 7:00 O'CLOCK, TEN AFTER 7:00, SO IF YOU ARE HERE RIGHT AT 7:00, YOU CAN PULL IT AND IT CAN BE DISCUSSED. MR. VODNOY: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. MR. BARROW: AND SO THAT WILL BE THE OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE CITY COUNCIL, THE ADOPTION OF THAT RESOLUTION. MAYOR HASTINGS: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WELL, THEN, I THINK WE'LL ADJOURN THIS MEETING TO SEPTEMBER 11TH -- AT WHAT TIME, 6:30? IS 6:30 A PROPER TIME? MR. BARROW: YES. MAYOR HASTINGS: ALL RIGHT. WE WILL ADJOURN THE MEETING. " ADJOURNMENT It was the order of the Chair, with consent of the Council, to adjourn the meeting until September 11th at 6:30 p.m. to meet in Closed Session if necessary. The meeting was adjourned by unanimous consent at 10:33 p.m. /' Approved: of the lerk and ex-off of Seal Beach Attest: Seal Beach, California September 11, 1995 The regular adjourned city Council meeting scheduled for 6:30 p.m. this date for the purpose of holding a Closed Session was cancelled as there were no items requiring consideration. .