HomeMy WebLinkAboutAAC Min 1996-09-17
CITY OF SEAL BEACH
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ARCHAEOLOGICAL ADVISORY COMMITfEE
SPECIAL MEETING MINUTES
SEPTEMBER 17, 1996
I. CALL TO ORDER
Chairperson Frietze called the meeting to order at 5:03 P.M.
II. ROLL CALL
Present:
Members Fitzpatrick, Goldberg, Hahn (5:09 PM), Johnston, Price
(5:04 PM), Unatin (5:20 PM), Willey, Young and Chairperson
Frietze
Absent:
Members Benjamin, Price, Hahn, and Unatin
Staff
Present:
Lee Whittenberg, Development Services Director
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Mr. Whittenberg indicated Member Benjamin telephoned to say she would not be present
this evening due to illness and that Member Hahn had called and said she was running
about ten minutes late. As the other committee members not present had not called to
say they weren't going to attend, they might walk in as the meeting progresses.
Member Price arrived at 5:04 PM.
III. APPROV AL OF AGENDA
MOTION by Willey; SECOND by Fitzpatrick to approve the agenda as presented.
MOTION CARRIED: 7 - 0 - 3
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AYES:
Members Fitzpatrick, Goldberg, Johnston, Price, Willey , Young and
Chairperson Frietze
None
Members Benjamin, Hahn, and Unatin
NOES:
ABSENT:
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Archaeological Advisory Conunittee Minutes · September 17. 1996
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IV. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS
Chairperson Frietze asked for oral communications from the audience. There were none.
v. CONSENT CALENDAR - No Items
VI. SCHEDULED MATTERS
1. REVIEW OF CITY COUNCIL CONSIDERATION OF "A Research Design and
Investigation Program of Archaeological Sites Located on the Hellman Ranch,
City of Seal Beach, California"
Recommendation: Review comments received during public comment period on
subject document, and authorize Chairperson to sign letter from the Committee
recommending reconsideration of proposed amendments, and consideration of any
other appropriate amendments, to the City Council, or instruct staff to finalize a
revised draft Memorandum for consideration at a continued Committee meeting,
or at the regular Committee meeting of October 9, 1996.
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The Chair introduced the matter, with Mr. Whittenberg indicating this topic was placed
on the last agenda as an information item, to provide Committee members with all of the
responses received during the public comment period on the document.
Mr. Whittenberg explained the City's Archaeological Element, a part of the City's
General Plan, requires a research design document be approved by the City Council.
As part of that process, the Archaeological Element requires a 30 day comment period
on the archaeology research design be available to the public before the Council takes
an action. Those comments can also be considered by the Council.
Among the comments received, the California Coastal Commission indicated the
proposed test phase work to be done on the property would be disturbing more than two
(2) square meters of surface land area. Therefore, the research design requires a coastal
development permit through the Coastal Commission. As part of that process, a peer
review of the research design by three other archaeologists in accordance with Coastal
Commission guidelines is needed.
When City staff initially sent the document to the City Council, staff was not of that
understanding.
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Archaeological Advisory COllullittee Minutes · September 17, 1996
The staff report to Council recommended they receive the research design and forward
it through the peer review process. Once that process was complete, those comments
would come back to the Council for its determination on how to proceed with the
research design document.
The Council would have choices:
1) Accept all the comments received. If comfortable, decide to approve the
document, with any changes per comments received during the comment period.
2) Accept all comments received. Refer the research design document back to the
Archaeological Advisory Committee for further review in light of the comments
received. The Committee would then forward another recommendation to the
Council with any changes still felt appropriate.
Mr. Whittenberg indicated the City has received one of the peer review comments, the
others have not been received yet. It is estimated the matter will return to City Council
at their October 14th meeting, and at that point the Council will be in a position to decide
how to proceed further.
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Mr. Whittenberg indicated he had reviewed that process at the last Committee meeting.
A major issue of discussion was the redline/strikeout version of the research design as
submitted by Mayor Forsythe as part of that comment period. The Committee scheduled
this meeting to consider the Mayor's version of that document and to provide any
comments to the Council the Committee felt appropriate in regard to the redline/strikeout
verSIOn.
Mr. Whittenberg indicated Mayor Forsythe was present this evening to address this
Committee and to explain her suggested changes to the research design.
Mr. Whittenberg said the Committee should determine whether to hear the Mayor's
presentation or review the recommended changes submitted by some members of the
Committee.
Member Hahn arrived at 5:09 PM.
Member Goldberg recommended the Committee hear from the Mayor first.
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MOTION by Goldberg; SECOND by Johnston to hear the comments from Mayor
Forsythe at this time.
MOTION CARRIED: 8 - 0 - 2
A YES:
Members Fitzpatrick, Goldberg, Hahn, Johnston, Price, Willey,
Young and Chairperson Frietze
None
Members Benjamin and Unatin
NOES:
ABSENT:
Mayor Forsythe addressed the Committee, first apologizing for the way in which she
handled the revision, stating she flunked PR 101. She stated that "Typically when I
review a document, I look for things that would not put the City in a position of liability,
things that the City would have concerns with as an overall document. If this document
were presented to the City for approval, without the Council having to sign off on it as
an approval process, but was simply under the signature of Dr. Stickel, it would have
gone through. Coming, I think, as an official document from the City of Seal Beach,
there were some problems with the document that needed to be remedied." Mayor
Forsythe stated she had gone through some of the written changes prepared by some
members of the Committee.
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The Archaeological Advisory Committee next began its review of Mayor Forsythe's
redline/strikeout version of Dr. Stickel's research design.
Member Goldberg distributed a Memorandum [Attached], dated September 15, 1996,
entitled Comments on Mayor Forsythe's RedlinelStrikeout Version - Date 8/14/96 Of
Stickel's Research Design. She explained the memo was prepared by Archaeological
Committee members Goldberg, Hahn, Johnston and Willey. Indicating Item 1 needs
correction, she asked Member Hahn to explain the changes.
Review of Page 1. Removed Resolution No. 4138. Needs to be in. Resolution No.
4138 states: "A test phase is an excavation of test pits to detennine the scope of
archaeological resources on a site. If a cultural site is discovered in the site survey,
a test phase on an archaeological site, and the recording of an historical site, must be
completed If.
13 Sites -- Sites that will be affected. All sites are imporlant and there are 13 on the
Hellman properly and in Gum Grove Park. Eventually all sites will be affected.
Author. Added city and properly owner. Take out city and properly owner --- conflict
of interest. Should be in consultation with SHPO and the Native Americans.
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Member Hahn stated the first change proposed by Mayor Forsythe is on page 1,
paragraph one. Mayor Forsythe proposed striking language referencing Resolution 4138.
Initially Member Hahn objected to this change because the front page of the
Archaeological Element starts with Resolution 4138. But she realized that GPA 92-1
refers to the Archaeological Element. It is a minor change and she doesn't have a
problem with it. The change as proposed by Mayor Forsythe would be okay, with the
consent of the Committee.
Mr. Whittenberg asked if the Committee wanted to take straw votes on each of the items
to be discussed, enabling the Committee to know if one issue has been resolved and the
Committee can go on to the another?
Member Willey indicated she agreed with Member Hahn.
Mayor Forsythe asked if the Committee wanted her to go page-by-page on the redlined
version or the memorandum?
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Member Goldberg said that since she wrote the memorandum she would like those
questions answered, just to know how the Committee was actually going to get started.
If the Committee would use the memo as a guideline and add to the question part of what
we wanted answered. If that is answered, she thought the Committee could then be able
to handle the strikeout version without any problem.
Mayor Forsythe said "I read the Minutes of your last meeting, asking where my
experience and so forth comes into this property. I have been working in very great
detail with this property since 1988. All the previous studies that were done, as far as
archaeology goes, I'm very familiar with. There were about seventeen reasons for
denying the project in 1990; those were penned by me. One of those elements was an
insufficient archaeological study. From that we went on to create an Archaeological
Element and to create this Committee. So, as far as my experience goes with that, it is
at least sincere. There is not one member, in the City of Seal Beach, or the property
owner, that wants another insufficient study; it's a waste of money. We want to find
what is on that property, the area slated for development, and handle it correctly. No
one has ever said anything different, and we wouldn't do anything different. I think, if
we go through here, you'll see some of the reasoning. A lot of it isn't really apparent,
some of it is typos; it's no big deal. A lot of it has to do with the City's liability. And
again, if Dr. Stickel can sign off on this thing by himself, fine. But I am not going to
sign off on a document that puts the City in a legal position and that's period. And any
document that would malign another archaeologist or come in with ... I think in my
mind, when I think of a research design, it should be very factual, it should be very
direct, it should be very black and white. I know you guys worked really hard on this.
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But, when I went to read it, I found it going off in places and maybe wandering. And
it needed to be brought back on track. So a lot of language was deleted to make it a
shorter, concise document. And again, it's got to be an official document coming from
the City. The legal stuff I did have help on with the City Attorney".
Member Willey said she was not sure this was a document coming from the City.
Mayor Forsythe said this is a document coming from the City.
Member Willey stated "When I look at a document like this I have certain criteria based
on what an archaeological research design should look like; from a professional
standard" .
Mayor Forsythe agreed.
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Member Willey said her view, when she looked at this and Mayor Forsythe's changes,
was to look at it from the sense of the City either accepts the design or denies the design
on the basis of the archaeology and the way in which an archaeological design paper
would be written. Not that that is coming from the City. "So I don't see where the
Council, by accepting the design, incurs liability. I only see that the liability exists with
the archaeological professional and his group".
Mayor Forsythe said she could understand that reasoning but said that by the City
Council's approval, we are acknowledging that this document exists and that there are
slanderous remarks in it.
Member Willey said that would be discussed at an appropriate time.
Member Goldberg questioned Mayor Forsythe, indicating the Mayor said she only
wanted to do the study where the development is going. Mayor Forsythe agreed.
Member Goldberg said that would eliminate a huge section of the area - the Gum Grove
specifically. That would cut down on the really true archaeological study out there.
Director Whittenberg responded that the Archaeology Element requires that an
archaeological investigation be done for sites to be developed.
Member Hahn said that wasn't right, and referred to ~I.C.3 in the Archaeological
Element. It says that in the course of an investigation, if the archaeologist comes across
cultural sites they are to be tested. That's all of them. It doesn't say only three or only
four.
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Mayor Forsythe said her personal stance is that she does not want the Gum Grove torn
up. "That's my personal stance. I met with members of the Gum Grove Park group
committee last night and it's their feeling as well".
Member Hahn questioned what did the Mayor mean by torn up? Tested? Mayor
Forsythe responded yes.
Member Unatin arrived at 5:20 PM.
Mr. Whittenberg indicated he would have to go back and look at the Archaeology
Element, but his recollection of the language is that it applies to properties that are to be
developed. The primary purpose of the Archaeology Element is to preserve
archaeological sites without disturbing them. "If we know there are sites in the Gum
Grove area that are not to be disturbed by the development and they are going to be
basically left in the form that they are currently in, I guess I'm just trying to understand
what the concern of the Committee would be to have those sites stay as they are".
~
Member Willey indicated her concern would be that as in any park situation, there will
be a certain amount of landscaping, possibly tree planting, possibly excavation for
whatever they decide to put there that, at a later point, may not take into consideration
exactly where the sites are. "And it would be my concern that unintentionally, without
thinking about it, oh a tree would look nice --- the Park Committee decides to put a tree
there. They put the tree there and all of a sudden, two months later, somebody says,
ooh, that was part of that site. Goodbye. Because once you've destroyed it, it's gone.
And I would feel more comfortable, from an archaeological standpoint, since it is
property that can be landscaped, can be disturbed even though it's not part of a
development as the term is used, that it will be destroyed unwittingly simply by
continued improvement to the park area. And, that's where my concern comes in".
Mayor Forsythe said "The group last night gave me their assurance that they would
check with this group. Apparently we don't go before the Park and Recreation
committee. If they could be given a proximity of where these sites were, they would
avoid those areas. As far as the irrigation system that is planned for it, those pipes are
already laid, so there is no reason for that to be dug up. The tree planting is typically
for those trees that have been removed. So it's not any new digs. They just recently took
out one hundred (l00) dead and diseased trees. So it would be in those spots that
replacements are going. It's not new sites".
Member Willey stated her only comment on that would be, you can't control the root
pattern of the tree, to disturb the site.
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Mayor Forsythe responded, "Forgive me but I just can't see why you'd want to go into
an area that --- I mean, you can read the State documents, and they say some of the best
mitigation is avoidance".
Member Willey responded "Exactly. Can you guarantee me that from this point there
will be no further planting of trees in any of the archaeological sites? Then, you are in
a position, where by your actions, even though they are unintentional, because you can't
control the growth of root patterns, et cetera, et cetera, that you could, unwittingly and
unintentionally, lead to the destruction of the site".
Mayor Forsythe asked if it's a consensus of this Committee that it's adamant in having
the four (4) sites in the Gum Grove tested?
Member Willey responded "Right now, I'm speaking for myself and I personally would
feel a great deal more comfortable. Now whether the rest of the Committee agrees with
me or not, you're welcome to poll them. But from my perspective, knowing how easily
cultural remains can be disturbed, however unwittingly that may be. It doesn't take
much".
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Mr. Whittenberg said "Let me just ask this, what would the existing tree root system be
doing to that area? Those trees were planted in the 1920's. Member Willey indicated
there are lots of things that can happen. For example, you plant a tree. Maybe you've
moved it --- let's say the tree is here and it's root pattern because of the bigger type tree
it is, it's tended to go off in this direction. You move it maybe six inches, it's a
different type of tree and it's root pattern structure is different. It's going to move to
areas where there is some moisture. Of itself it is wood. If you have, for example, a
fire area with charcoal --- if it invades that area and it hasn't been invaded before ---
over time, if you pull charcoal from that area some of the roots die and decay --- it
becomes all mixed up and so you can throw off radio carbon dating if you would choose
to do it in that point" .
Mayor Forsythe said "But again, these sites are not --- I don't know -- if! were thinking
if you were referring to a burial site or anything --- why disturb something like that?"
Member Willey responded, "That's right. I agree with you".
Mayor Forsythe asked, "Why go in there and dig something up and displace it for where
its been for hundreds of years?"
Member Willey said "I don't have a problem, if you don't disturb it at all. But that also
means, don't disturb it with park activities as well. "
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Mayor Forsythe indicated we cannot control the roots of trees.
Member Willey responded, "Then don't replant trees."
Member Hahn stated she had two concerns. One, the Element is not being followed.
It says a test phase is an excavation of text pits to determine the scope of archaeological
resources on the site. If a cultural site is discovered in the site survey, a test phase on
an archaeological site, and the recording of a historical site must be completed; that's
City policy. "I think we should follow the Element". The second concern is that Dr.
Stickel told her he believes the project will have an impact on Gum Grove Park. She
asked Dr. Stickel if he had a map or something to show that impact?
Dr. Stickel stated, "Yes, I do."
Member Hahn asked if he could show it to the Committee?
Dr. Stickel, speaking away from the microphone and not being recorded, stated that
while they were doing the survey, people were digging in Gum Grove Park. In that
situation means that they dug out with a backhoe and totally destroyed a cubic meter of
area, maybe more.
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Mr. Whittenberg asked if they were planting trees or were they removing diseased trees?
Dr. Stickel said they were planting trees, he didn't see any trees come out of there.
Mr. Whittenberg indicated it was his understanding no trees were planted, only existing
diseased trees were being removed.
Dr. Stickel indicated they were planting trees, and said "The only development map that
I've been provided with, by Mr. Bartlett, shows that there will be a development through
the park. There's a pathway that goes right here --- that's that dark line that goes
through there".
Mayor Forsythe said, "That's an existing pathway."
Dr. Stickel responded, "Well, I don't know that. I mean --- ."
Mayor Forsythe said, "It's there. That's a road that goes through the bottom ----."
Dr. Stickel responded, ''It says pathway - pedestrian trail".
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Mayor Forsythe said "That's an existing roadway today."
Dr. Stickel responded" Well, I don't see it out there and I've surveyed the whole thing."
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Walk it Dr. Stickel."
Dr. Stickel responded, "That to me looks like a development."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "That is an existing road that is out there today. "
Dr. Stickel responded, "No the road doesn't go like that."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "It doesn't extend all the way out, but it goes to the end of the
park today."
Dr. Stickel responded, "It goes way around here, all the way around where there are two
more sites over here. "
Mayor Forsythe asked if there are two more sites over there now? "Let's get back to
this because we're at a stalemate on this, on the Gum Grove issue."
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Chairperson Frietze asked for quiet please.
Dr. Stickel continued, stating, "The aspect of doing a test phase on the sites that are
within the property is that, I think, the City, this is my recommendation, whatever the
City wants to do, they can do. I'm just making a recommendation. There are Native
American sites in here, great portions of which have been destroyed already with
previous development. That means the remaining portions take on more significance,
more potential significance, to Native Americans, to the community and to the citizens
of Seal Beach. To actually define their boundaries, to find out if there are burials in
there. For instance, you don't want to go in there and put in a restroom or a visitors
center or plant another tree if you're going to disturb a burial. I don't think any body
here would want to do that. And that's why it's my recommendation to get a good
scientific handle on where these sites are so they can be properly managed in the future.
Mayor Forsythe asked if at this point Dr. Stickel was requesting all tree planting and
everything stop in the Gum Grove?
Dr. Stickel responded, "Yes, because we caught them destroying part of the site.
Inadvertently, but that's what happened."
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Member Goldberg asked Dr. Stickel "Just walking over there, not doing any surveying
or anything, has any archaeological items been found in the Gum Grove Park area?"
[Dr. Stickel spoke but could not be heard on the audio tape].
Mayor Forsythe asked if Dr. Stickel went to the area they had backhoed with the tree
planting? Did he find anything?
Dr. Stickel responded, "Yes, I found [Dr. Stickel could not be heard on the audio tape].
Member Goldberg asked "Mayor, if it's known there artifacts there and you're going to
have people out there starting to dig around, you may end up having to fence that whole
area off. Not only with barbed wire but maybe with a permanent top across it".
Mayor Forsythe asked if it's this Committee's recommendation right now that the Gum
Grove should also be off limits to the public at this point?
Member Willey indicated the involved section should be closed.
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Mayor Forsythe asked, "So, it's the Committee's recommendation to close off the Gum
Grove to public access?"
Member Hahn stated, "That isn't what we said."
Mayor Forsythe asked for clarification.
Member Willey stated, "The areas in which the archaeological --- or is it all through
Gum Grove? I personally have never been at Gum Grove."
Member Goldberg asked, Ills it the whole area Dr. Stickel, or is it parts that you've
already interpreted out there that the artifacts could be?" Dr. Stickel stated, "Yes, it's
less than a ballpark area".
[Dr. Stickel could not be heard on the audio tape].
Mr. Whittenberg said "Dr. Stickel, I'm sorry, maybe if you could come up to the table
here so we could pick you up on the microphone. I'm not sure that we're getting you."
Mr. Minch stated, "If anybody doesn't know me, I'm Dr. John Minch. I'm a geologist
and I'm working with Dr. Gary Stickel on this project".
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Page 12 - City of Seal Beach
Archaeological Advisory Committee Minutes · September 17, 1996
Dr. Stickel continued, stating, "To answer your questions, the site areas are smaller than
Gum Grove Park. And so the intent now, of the test phase, which was by the way called
for in the original contract, and we were required to do it -- and that's why we planned
for this. The text phase would then further refine those site boundaries and provide the
best information on where they are and also the contents of each of the sites; we'd know
how important they are."
Member Willey stated, "So, I believe the recommendation of the Committee is that those
areas in which the sites are located would be cut off from access."
Mayor Forsythe asked how would that be done?
Member Willey said it could be done by moving the fence.
Chairperson Frietze stated, "You'd have to protect them. Protect the area those sites are
located on. "
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Let's get real for a minute. Is it a public park? How would
you do that?"
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Chairperson Frietze said "If you go into any State park or public park they protect
artifacts that are in the area. They enclose the area. "
Mayor Forsythe asked if they put a cyclone fence around it, with Member Willey
indicating that would be one way.
Member Willey indicated that in Balboa Park in San Diego they have a tree they don't
want anyone to touch so they have simply encased the whole thing in a fence.
Mayor Forsythe said the State Department of Forestry has been working with the Gum
Grove Committee to remove the diseased trees. One hundred trees were earmarked.
There were some instances where the stumps had to be removed because they were so
infested with the Longhole Borer. The Boy Scouts are planting back there: it's a very
intense community effort to get the Gum Grove back in shape.
Chairperson Frietze asked, "Was anyone invited to go out there to sort of supervise that
process so that in case there was anything _?"
Mayor Forsythe responded no, not from an archaeological perspective. "You've got this
situation where you've got to keep the site's location confidential. How do you let the
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folks know, who want to do something good, that they can't use that site without
disclosing the location of that site?"
Chairperson Frietze asked if the people doing the planting remove soil and anything in
it, is that okay? Mayor Forsythe responded yes.
Member Willey stated "You sort of come to the conclusion if there's no way to prevent
the inadvertent disturbance of what remains, then the only logical thing to do is to test
it, then restore it. Under normal circumstances, when you do an archaeological dig,
whether it's on a person's property, whether it's in a public park, one of the primary
things that you start out with --- at least in aU the archaeology I've done --- is you sign
a promise to the land owner than in so far as possible you will restore their land to the
situation that it was before. So you spend a great deal of time carefully rolling up the
sod, placing it so that you've preserved it. You excavate very carefully. When you've
finished excavating, when all the information has been retrieved, you put the soil back,
you put the ground cover back. So that the place has been restored in so far as
possible" .
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Mayor Forsythe said "Another aspect of this, which is not this Committee's
responsibility, but it's something I have to be concerned with is the financial aspect of
this. This is a proposed development project, it's not a carte blanche situation. Each test
site is phenomenaly expensive. I've got a bill here from Dr. Stickel --- I was floored".
Dr. Stickel asked Mayor Forsythe, "Why were you floored? Do you have any
experience in the cost of archaeological excavation?"
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Because it was $95,000 for one site and yes, there were
some comparisons done."
Dr. Stickel stated, "Really? Do you know that the costing that LSA charged the Hellman
Company, or whoever, six years ago is virtually the same as ours?"
Mayor Forsythe said, "Not for one test site."
Dr. Stickel said "Yes it was. They dug 103 pits. And their rates are the same as ours
essentially. Right John?"
Mr. Minch said "Yes."
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Archaeological Advisory COllunittee Minules · Sel'll'mber 17, 1996
Dr. Stickel stated, "I'm really surprised about this cost thing because LSA charged $5000
for the research design and I charged far less. Maybe I should have charged $5000 and
_ [Dr. Stickel continued speaking but was unclear on the audio tape].
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Again, I'm looking at an entire development project. And
I know that there are far more aspects of this project than the archaeological study. Of
significance (INTERRUPTED BY DR. STICKEL) --- please let me finish --- to the City
would be the wetland restoration. That is going to be a much bigger ticket than this
because of the toxins involved. And that's something that's crucial that it be done
[TAPE UNCLEAR] ... or it's all for naught. It won't survive".
Dr. Stickel asked, "Is that more important than the Native American sites?"
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Not the ones that are slated for development. But I think
if we're looking at sites that are better left undisturbed, if you weigh that against it,
yeah, I think that those sites that can be mitigated by avoidance need to be done that
way."
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "Madame Chairman, we're drifting away from our agenda
business" .
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Chairperson Frietze asked for the discussion to move forward.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "But again, as far as my concerns with the number of test sites
done, here's one test site, labor only, no reports, no data, nothing, $95,000. So, I have
to look at that too."
Dr. Stickel asked if the Mayor was aware of how much archaeology can cost in Orange
County?
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Yes. Again, we have done comparisons on this."
Dr. Stickel stated, "Really, do you know one of the sites --- James why don't you speak
up here? How much did they spend on the Irvine Ranch Company on the Pelican Hill
site? One site?"
James Flaherty, assistant to Dr. Stickel, indicated that one site on the Irvine Ranch
project was at least $1,000,000.00, with the entire project probably between $3,000,000
to $5,000,000.
.....
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Mayor Forsythe stated, "Then I can safely say at that point, if that's where we're headed
with this, that jeopardizes the entire project and we can shut this down tonight."
Dr. Stickel stated. "Well if you care to do that, that's fine. I have never said that this
project is going to cost that much. And I'm rather shocked that I continually hear of
how much we're charging and costing this project when the fact, I think we've bent over
backwards to present a project that is very cost effective. And I want to give you one
example because " .
Chairperson Frietze stated, "Gary, I think we need to proceed with this. We can discuss
that later. We have a lot of issues that we want to cover."
Member Unatin asked what the difference was between the million dollar hole in Orange
County and the $100,000 hole across the way? "They must have been up to something
for the extra $900,000".
Chairperson Frietze stated, "You're looking'at the area, at what cultural preservation is
there site-wise --- and what's involved. I mean, each area, each city, each structure
"
~
Member Unatin asked if a test pit can cost in a range from $100,000 to $1,000,000?
Dr. Stickel said "No. Test pits are the individual little pits that we dig".
Member Unatin indicated he knew what they are.
Dr. Stickel continued, "These are 1 x 1 meters and they cost a few thousand (dollars).
And just to give you an example of how we're trying to hold down the costs, this is
LSA's number of pits they dug on the same site --- more pits than we're proposing. A
greater sample. "
Member Unatin asked what did an LSA pit cost?
Dr. Stickel continued, stating, "The same as what we're charging. Right about the same.
That was six years ago and we haven't substantially raised our rates since what they have
(sic). They're digging a much higher percentage --- if you see here --- it's the same site.
They're digging a much smaller area, more pits. We're digging 24 pits spread over an
immense area here. Now, archaeology --- and apparently many people don't understand
this --- is very labor-intensive. It's very --- you can't get people to go out there and dig
for free. Many developers would like them to do that. Students, and whatever --- I've
been having trouble getting a crew because I'm paying so little on this project. And so,
.....
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\.,.-
think about it. If there's burials here, and four of these sites have rumors to be burials.
We can miss burials in this area and so on; mass areas could be missed. So why am I
proposing this? Because this is a scientific plan. This probability sampling maximizes
the scientific potential of finding burials and very critical data while still digging the least
amount of dirt possible. And this is the best for archaeology because archaeologists in
general, good archaeologists, want to dig as little as possible to keep from disturbing the
sites, you know, to keep from disturbing the American areas. And yet retrieve the
maximum amount of information. So I have to take exception to any charge that we are
being exorbitant in our approach. We've provided a very responsible approach here and
I can't stress it strongly enough."
Member Goldberg asked, "Is that for all the pits that you did for $95,000 or just per pit
is $95, OOO?
Dr. Stickel responded, "No, for one site, 24 pits. "
~
Mr. Minch stated, "That was assuming that they might be as much as a meter deep. And
we actually don't anticipate it to be a meter deep on the edges of the site here. Also,
what we're talking about in Gum Grove might be six to eight pits. So that we're not
talking about _' This site happened to be one of the medium-large sites so we took
that as a beginning. In Gum Grove, I would guess that we might be looking at six or
eight pits. "
Dr. Stickel stated, "We haven't done a sample of that, and I don't want to commit to that
right now. But the point here is that we costed out these units to a maximum depth of
one meter. It's possible that some might go deeper than that, because across the street,
over on the Naval Weapons Station some of the pits did go deeper. But I anticipate, on
this particular site, the probably will go shallower. So in that case then it takes less time
to dig, we save the money, okay, and then you apply that to the next site and so on.
And the same thing with the number of pits. Constantly has been a charge, from Mr.
Bartlett over here, that we're digging too much and so on. But what we do is a running
analysis --- the reason we're doing this in an intelligent fashion instead of blindly just
digging pits in a mechanical fashion to run up a bill of some sort --- is we do a running
analysis. And if we obtain what's called redundant information, if we're not finding
burials, we're not finding houses, we're not finding features, we're not finding major
artifact areas --- we get the shell species in the same area, sure, you don't keep digging.
You shouldn't be stupid doing this stuff; you should be intelligent. You move on to dig
the next pit. And I'd be perfectly happy to dig half the pits here and move on to the next
site, you know. And get these sites properly test phased. As long as we're scientifically
comfortable with what's happening, you know. And the thing is with random sampling,
which has been assailed already in this thing, the best archaeologists in this country use
'-'
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random sampling because this was argued in literature 25 years ago. It's the best
approach. And if you don't believe it, look at your polls for presidential elections,
whatever --- Gallup, Harris, whatever, Nielsen TV ratings --- they're based on random
sampling. And the have great precision. The TV polls are based only 2500 families and
they represent the 250,000,000 Americans. This is the way to go. "
Chairperson Frietze asked if the Committee had any other questions? There being none,
Chairperson Frietze asked Mayor Forsythe to continue.
Mayor Forsythe referred to Attachment 3: Redline/strikeout version of A Research
Design and Investigation Program of Archaeological Sites Located on the Hellman
Ranch, City of Seal Beach, CA, Mayor Gwen Forsythe, August 14, 1996), stating that
in reference to page 1: 13 sites. "That's going to have to be something that's up to the
City Council I gather. If you want to leave 13 sites in there, that's fine and r guess that
will determine whether or not this document is approved or denied. "
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "For my understanding, is it the consensus of the Committee
that all 13 sites should be test phased?" The Committee generally concurred in that all
13 sites should be test phased.
\.r
Chairperson Frietze stated, "Excuse me, I lost my train of thought. Okay, we have the
13 sites. Is that's what's recorded right now?"
Dr. Stickel responded, "Yes, we lost two and gained two."
Chairperson Frietze continued, "So there are 13 sites out there that can be affected by
this development and it's the consensus of the majority of the group here to put it in a
Motion to include all 13 sites only, or any sites that come up. We need to include
anything that comes up and not hold it down to a specific number. This is my opinion.
But you were asking for 13 sites."
Member Hahn stated, "Or the number that the archaeologist believes is it, does that
cover your point that there could be more sites?"
Chairperson Frietze stated, "Yes."
MOTION by Willey; SECOND by Hahn that the statement needs to state the 13
identified sites and any other subsequently identified by the City's archaeologist.
MOTION CARRIED:
9-0-1
~
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~
A YES:
Fitzpatrick, Goldberg, Hahn, Johnston, Price, Unatin, Willey, Young
and Chairperson Frietze
None
Benjamin
NOES:
ABSENT:
Mayor Forsythe, referring to page 1, Author, stated, "I added the City and property
owner. I feel that both need to know what's going on. Again, Lee, I'm going to defer
to you for a minute. If this is something that's strictly coming from Dr. Stickel and it
goes to the Council again for approval or denial, I mean, who receives the benefits at
this point. Should the property owner of the City have knowledge of what's going on
out there?"
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "First off, they will have knowledge automatically. Because
other provisions of the Archaeology Element require that any information regarding a
particular piece of property is available to the property owner and his representatives that
need that information on a need-to-know basis at any point in time. The City is in that
same position. I think what you're really dealing with is a question as to, from what I
heard you say earlier, is --- you're looking at it more as a question is there a liability to
the City in the document being approved with certain language in it?"
~
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Correct".
Mr. Whittenberg continued, stating, "} can't answer that question for you unfortunately.
That's a question for legal counsel and I'm not going to attempt to even tread water in
that category. But I think the other question related to that is if the City approves it, is
the City liability or not based on the language that Dr. Stickel has put in the document?
I'm not sure that's the case but that's something you'd need to talk to the City Attorney
about. "
Member Willey stated, "It wasn't a case of not informing the City and the property
owner. We would expect them to be more than fully informed about it. It was in the
sense of if Dr. Stickel said "Gee, this is a really important pit that needs to be dug here
because something is going to come out of it' could the City and/or property owner
arbitrarily say 'We don't think that's not important, therefore it's not going to be done'.
We were uncomfortable that that seemed as possibly a conflict of interest."
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Reading it from my standpoint, though and I'm not as
comfortable with the document because you've worked on it so much longer. It's that
the exclusion appeared unintentional but purposeful. There was a reason that those two
entities were excluded from that statement. "
~
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'-'"
Member Hahn stated, "I guess the issue on that one Gwen, was determining significance.
And it was intentional. We felt the City and the property owner do not have the
expertise to determine significance whereas Dr. Stickel does."
Mayor Forsythe asked, "So it would solely be up to Dr. Stickel to make that
determination?"
Member Hahn responded, "In consultation with the State Office of Historic Preservation
and the Native Americans." Mayor Forsythe stated, "Alright."
iiiii,~I._-
'-'
Mayor Forsythe referring to page 2 stated, "This is going to go into a whole series ---
and I did have the help of the City Attorney on these --- this one isn't as bad as some of
the other ones. Again, my perspective would be with this document that we're moving
forward and we're trying to do something correct. We're well aware of what's happened
in the past and that's fine to talk about. But to put it in print makes me nervous. A lot
of these archaeologists are still alive and well and I just don't like a document that's been
blessed by the City of Seal Beach to be out there compromising someone else's
professional ability. That's just my personal opinion."
Member Willey indicated she understands that, stating, "Coming from the perspective
of the archaeologist, when I look at something like that, if I were sitting here as a student
or a professional archaeologist to look at all of the documents that have been generated
for the City of Seal Beach, and I'd be more than happy to bring you some professional
journals which are filled with acrimony, the level of which --- this is extremely mild. I
would wonder why Dr. Stickel hadn't criticized these earlier works a little more --- as
a professional reading this. Because, knowing the history of these various sites and the
way that they were dug, I'm sure that many of my own professional papers have been
extremely uncomplimentary, shall we say, to living archaeologists in Pennsylvania,
where I took over from them and did their work. When I read something like this, this
is an expected critique of one professional's work by another or non-professional in some
cases work by a professional. And I would personally expect to see it and that's the
perspective I come from when I look at a document like this. Now I know we're coming
from two different viewpoints. "
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Yes, we are. Because do you have someone that document
would go to after you've reviewed it, for approval?"
'-'
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~
Member Willey stated "Actually, that's hard to say."
~
Dr. Stickel stated, "I think there's just a lack of understanding of what a research design
should be. The reason I teach research design at UCLA is because I've been trained in
this thing for 20 years by the best archaeologists in the world --- Willis Denford, Colin
Renfrew, James Sagett, Jim Hill etc. etc. A research design by it's very nature has to
be critical. And you have to assess all prior work that's gone on. You point out the
successes, you point out the failing of past work. Why? Because you want your
audience to know where you're going and you're not going to repeat those same
mistakes. A good example is, one of the references or strikeouts that are in here, of a
backhoe situation at Site 852. The use of the backhoe was completely unprofessional and
digging 63 trenches of maybe 100' long by 3' wide --- all that material is totally
destroyed from the site. Four artifacts were derived from the work. The nature of my
critique was, it's not surprising that only four artifacts were found given how bad the
technique was. We found more artifacts walking over the surface without any excavation
and so on. So, that to me dramatically points out if we change that statement to just read
63 trenches were excavated and only 4 artifacts were found it makes it appear that these
sites contain very little data. And therefore, that diminishes their potential significance,
you see? And I can't do that a priori, before the fact. I have to excavate in controlled
units - scientifically. Based on random sampling. And then, if there's only four artifacts
found, fine. But there may be 4,000 or 40,000 --- we don't know at this point. So the
nature my critique, and as Dr. Willey said, I've been mild compared to some of my
colleagues. And I've been raked over the coals by some of my colleagues --- that's part
of the scientific process. One other point I want to get across here is that a scientific
document of this nature is, in my mind's eye, is very similar to when someone goes to
a medical doctor. They get a diagnosis, results. They may not like that diagnosis but
they can't change it. That's a scientific, sacrosanct situation --- the doctor won't change
it. "
Mayor Forsythe responded, "But you don't go around to your second opinion and say
Well, that so-called doctor, who is calling himself a physician, told me that and then put
that in writing and have to have someone sign off on it. Which is what I've found in this
document. "
Dr. Stickel stated, "Well, I don't see the concern because I've never been sued by a city
on any of the research designs I've done over a 30-year period."
Mayor Forsythe asked, "And you've had documents like this passed by other City
Councils?"
'-"
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'-"
Dr. Stickel responded, "Yes. And that's why I'm cited in international books on method
and theory. II
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Can we go on? I don't want to hear any more."
Chairperson Frietze stated, "Hang on a second, I think your point was well made that
there are ethics between various archaeologists. We've worked with a lot of them. I
think the intent here was not to bad-mouth any archaeologists about the projects that
they've done, it's just to make a point that they weren't done thoroughly. II
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Then I think that if wording can be chosen that is not as
offensive as the wording that he used."
Chairperson Frietze stated, "I agree."
""
Review of page 3:
13 sites. "Historically the properly had 13 archaeological sites created by ancient
Native Americans. However, two of the sites are not on the 186.2 acres but two
additional sites were discovered during the survey phase so the total remains the same If.
Delete footnote.
Mayor Forsythe, in discussing Pa~e 3. 13 sites, indicated this has been discussed.
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "Back to the point I was getting to. I think Dr. Stickel can
make the comments that work done previously is not done up to current day standards
and still address the concern that Gwen has, and I think she's hearing that from the City
Attorney to some extent. That there is concern for the potential liability to the City from
one of those archaeologists suing the City over a document. Maybe there's a way to
amend the two to where you're getting the same point across but not in the derogatory
manner in the way some of them are made now. I think that's what I'm hearing now. II
Dr. Stickel stated, "l take exception that they're derogatory. But I am willing to say yes,
if another way can be found for expressing the thought that these were problematic
studies that were done. Fine. And John here is very good at doing that sort of thing. II
Chairperson Frietze stated, "l think we need to move forward with all due respect. II
Member Goldberg stated, liThe question that I had was if this is a document that was
being signed off by Gary, and all through the document it says the writer, then that is
~
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'-'"
what he has done and what the research has picked up. I know what you're saying ---
soften it up. But maybe we don't have to soften it Up."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "But you're asking me to approve a document that maligns
another professional, and I think that's unprofessional. I mean, you can have your
comments about previous work without personally, you know, I had a real problem with
it. "
Chairperson Frietze asked if the Committee can move forward please.
Member Johnston stated, "I don't want to go on with that. I don't want to leave that
completely. That the poorly studied ..."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Poorly studied ..." is not a bad one. I'm not concerned with
leaving "poorly studied" in there. It's some other ones that got kind of goofy later on."
Member Johnston responded, "I think this needs to stay in as it is if that's not as
offensive to you as we go on, because as they said, if Dr. Stickel doesn't mention that
kind of work he would be remiss in his professional ..."
\...
Mayor Forsythe responded, "I guess my question is, what's the point?"
Dr. Stickel stated, "The point is didactic."
Member Johnston continued, stating, "The point is that like someone mentioned here, if
someone was to read the sentence that you put in, it's like this is fine. What happened
in the past is okay. And that's what we don't want to put forth --- that it was okay.
Because it was not okay. "
Mayor Forsythe responded, "But again, that's my point. Why can't --- if everything was
so lousy in the past, let it lie. If this is a professional that's coming in to do a research
design and to do the test studies, let him find what's out there. Why does he have to go
after somebody else that's done something. Why can't we just say, okay we've hired an
archaeologist, we've got a committee, we're setting our sites on this project that's slated
for development, let's see what's out there and protect it from the development. Instead,
we're going back in history and maligning everybody that's ever walked on the property
and I have a real problem with that."
Member Johnston asked Dr. Stickel, "Is there any way you can reword this?"
......
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~
Dr. Stickel stated, "It can be re-worded, but I want to answer that. The reason why we
do this, is that in the professional code of ethics of both national organizations, the
Society of American Archaeologists and the Society of Professional Archaeologists, says
that when an archaeologist does an excavation they must have a plan of research. Part
of that plan is a review, and that means a critical review, of all past work that was done
on that property. So the reason is that this is going to be a report for many different
parties. I have to address my colleagues. They have to know that the research design
has been thorough and has addressed all past research and has pointed out the errors of
past research so that they can judge where I'm coming from in order to improve the
research up to the present day. "
The Committee talks together. [Discussion cannot be ascertained on the audio tape].
Member Price asked, "Why can't we just put a disclaimer on this that the contents are
from Dr. Gary Stickel? It has nothing to do with the City Council. This is his report.
They do that on the movies and everything nowadays."
Member Goldberg indicated we're only on page 3 and it's 6:00 p.m.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "By my approval, it would mean that I approve."
~
Member Price stated, "If it said... the following comments are just his... " .
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Yes, I understand that. But I don't approve of the way it's
written. "
Dr. Stickel stated, "Then you disapprove of archaeology --- I'm sorry. That's the way
archaeology is conducted."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "No, I disagree with the way some of this is written and I think
it can be repaired. And I think it can be put in a way --- if some of the intent is lost,
okay fine, we'll put it back in. But again, I just --- I don't know. And the Gum Grove
aspect of it we disagree on. "
Member Unatin stated, "I don't understand how this is being handled. Are we going
through each point? Are you going to say well this one we are prepared to skip over,
and move on to the next one? No consensus has occurred on question I. Question 2 is
merely reiterating what Member Goldberg said. Is this document signed by Stickel, the
Stickel document? Does the City have to sign off on this document? So this is the City-
Stickel document?"
~
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~
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "The process is, the Council meets to approve research design
documents. Now the idea of a disclaimer where they're approving a document or not
_ not recognizing some of this --- I don't know if that would give a comfort level to
other members of the Council" .
Mayor Forsythe indicated the City Attorney could be asked.
Mr. Whittenberg indicated that may be a good alternative.
Dr. Stickel asked, "What's the concern here? That the City may be sued because of
something I might say about previous research? Is that the concern?"
Mayor Forsythe stated, "I guess I just felt that some of the comments were
inappropriate. "
Dr. Stickel stated, "Well I disagree."
Mayor Forsythe responded, "That's you prerogative to disagree."
~
Dr. Stickel stated, "I know, but I'm the archaeologist and am charged with coming up
with a research design. I have thirty years of experience. "
Chairperson Frietze stated, "I think both of you have made your point. If
Member Willey asked if she could add one other possible consideration? Member Willey
further stated, "The way you do a critical review such as Dr. Stickel has done, you do
in fact expose people who either are not professionals and should not have embarked on
the worked in the first place, or who consider themselves professional and are maybe
listed as professionals and yet have done an inadequate or downright bad job. If you do
not expose that, you set up two scenarios. First, you yourself are regarded as not being
a careful researcher because you did not take note of a poor situation. And the second
thing is you have not informed the world of this and so they may hire this individual and
then they get burned. They'll say well gee, we read this thing from so-and-so and they
never mentioned that and they looked at this individual's work. What happened?' So
this is another aspect that as a professional one seeks. "
Member Unatin stated, "In the interest of consensus, what's wrong with changing it
along the lines that Mr. Whittenberg mentioned? That it's not up to current standard.
That makes the City happy and it gets us off this point and onto something more
important. "
~
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~
Dr. Stickel asked, "On that particular point?"
Member Unatin responded in regards to poorly studied - not up to current standards.
Dr. Stickel indicated he doesn't have a problem with that.
Member Unatin suggested the Committee move on.
Mr. Whittenberg asked if that is the consensus of the Committee?
After general discussion. Member Unatin stated, "Poorly" is bothering the City. Gary
is not so stuck on the 'poorly'. Mr. Whittenberg suggests it say 'not up to current
standard' which is a nice, better-educated, more sophisticated, legalize way to say that
they did a bad job. So, let's move on."
\w.
Mr. Minch stated, "I want to make a comment. Gary and I will discuss all of these
points that seem to be litigious. We will look at them and see if we can't reword them
in a different way so they are less intrusive or less obnoxious. I also will run it over at
my expense to my attorney and ask him if any of these things are libelous or litigious.
I don't want to get sued either. I don't think we will. Gary and I will look at these
things, we will go over them and we will also run by the attorney. "
Mayor Forsythe stated, "If I could tell you some of the things that cities are sued for."
Mr. Minch indicated he knew and agreed with Mayor Forsythe.
Mayor Forsythe, returning to the discussion relative to page 3 concerning the thirteen
sites, asked, "Again, we can identify them. I'm not in favor of going into the Gum
Grove. So if you want to put that back in here and leave it up to the discretion of the
vote of the Council we can do that. "
Member Hahn asked, "Do we have a choice?"
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Yes, the choice is yours."
Member Goldberg asked if what the Committee was going to do was take out the
footnote? "I would not like to take out anything. I would like the Committee to put in
everything that they think is appropriate. If something has to be taken out, then when
this comes up before the City, then I think that individual members of the Committee can
come before the Council and state why they don't think it should be."
~
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\.,.-
Chairperson Frietze indicated that is what the Committee is doing.
Member Goldberg agreed, stating, "But I think that's an issue that really has to be
addressed" .
Chairperson Frietze stated, "The fact that Hellman is referred to, I think it should stay."
After discussion, the Chairperson asked if the Committee wished to make a Motion?
Member Hahn asked, "Where should this new text, that's within quotation marks, fit in
the document?"
Member Willey stated, "We were trying to get a joining between what you had proposed
and what Dr. Stickel had put in and smooth it out a bit."
Mayor Forsythe asked if you're putting the footnote information up, into the top?
Member Goldberg stated, "No, we're deleting the footnote totally."
Member Hahn asked, "Then where does the new text go?"
\..r
Member Willey said, "Right where it says 'historically', and why can't I find
'historically' on this page? It goes right where it starts 'historically'.
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "The other changes on that page were okay, I just want to make
sure I'm understanding correct! y . Just so I'm understanding when I get ready to do a
report back to Council, that the areas that were proposed for a redline/strikeout that were
not discussed in the memo you had no concerns with?"
Member Johnston said, "Right."
Member Willey stated, "What I'm in the process of doing and I just ran out of time
because I'm not as familiar with Microsoft Word as I am with Word Perfect, so therefore
it's taking me longer to do that. What I was simply doing was giving you, in essence,
another redline but with the stuff we felt that should be left in, left in. The stuff we
accepted that Mayor Forsythe has changed that we thought were good changes, or
smoothed things out or clarified things, left those in. And a few things that we, as a
Committee, added. And I will try to have that finished by the beginning of next week. "
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "So this is basically reflecting concerns you still have on the
redline/strikeout. The rest of it, that you're not mentioning, were things that were
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generally acceptable? So I know when I'm getting ready to do minutes so I'm
understanding" .
Member Goldberg stated, "My understanding is deleting the footnote, that's all."
Chairperson Frietze asked, "Eliminating two and eliminating the footnote at the bottom?"
The Committee had a general discussion regarding moving language from the footnote
into the main text of the document. [Discussion not clear on audio tape].
Member Hahn stated, "Madame Chair, I wanted to add that there were only four of us
at that sub-committee meeting so we didn't get your concerns. "
Chairperson Frietze stated, "I think it's important because it's based on those sites.
That's my personal opinion. But it's what the consensus of this committee wants. If you
want to put it in a formal motion, that's fine. If we're all going to agree that we delete
it, that's fine too. I mean, I'm going to have to object to it but it's not in a formal
Motion. "
-.."
Member Goldberg clarified, stating, "It's being put into the body of the letter and
eliminated as a footnote."
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "Some of the language is moving up into the sentence. Where
the sentence now says Historically, the property had 13 archaeological sites created by
ancient Native Americans. "
Chairperson Frietze clarified it is not being deleted entirely, it is being added into the
paragraph, and not eliminating any wording.
Member Willey indicated that somehow the end of the quotes got missed.
Mr. Whittenberg clarified, stating, "The end of the quote ends at same, right? Some of
the text that is in the footnote is going to be moved up, into the body of the document,
and then the footnote is eliminated.
Member Willey asked, "Are you uncomfortable with the elimination of in excess of 6000
acres and extended into what are now several distinct communities?
Dr. Stickel stated, "I don't understand the point here, why state that? It's irrelevant."
Committee members indicated that's why they were eliminating it.
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Member Goldberg stated, "We eliminated that sentence and we put the other sentence up
into the body of the document instead.
Member Fitzpatrick stated, "We're dealing with a much smaller area here." Mr.
Whittenberg stated, "I think the reason that it came in was there was a comment at other
places in the document that said people were born on the Hellman Ranch. And not
knowing whereabouts on the Hellman Ranch those people were born specifically,
indicating that the ranch, at the time that person was born, is not the ranch as it exists
today."
Dr. Stickel stated, "That's another point. Why include it?
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Why is that relevant? Because the picture drawn from so-and-so
said she was born on the Hellman Ranch makes you think that someone was born and
lived right there on the bluff. And I think it's important to clarify that the Hellman
Ranch was once huge. She could have been born in Cypress."
Dr. Stickel asked, "Why is that important?"
\..-
Mayor Forsythe asked, "Why mention it if it's not important?"
Dr. Stickel stated, "It is important because the lady said she was born on the Hellman
Ranch. Why is it important where she was born on the Hellman Ranch?
There was general discussion among the Committee, with the Committee next discussing
the Committee's concerns on Page II.
Review of page 11. Correction: "Early Period" or "Early Man" period. Statements
should stay in --- he is a noted experl --- he also has the right as a professional to put
forth a theoretical position on the subject for which he must reference the place where
it was mentioned previously (if it has been).
Mayor Forsythe indicated Dr. Stickel is the author and quotes the proposed deleted
language. "The reason that was deleted is it's the only time that I saw that reference.
And with all due respect, if he uses it that's fine. And it's not referred to again. And
if there's an industry standard or something else that's used, I didn't see the need for it
to be there. "
.......
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Dr. Stickel stated, "I don't understand why you are judging my input on the research
design. "
Mayor Forsythe responded, "I'm not judging. What I saw was a very vague document
and I was trying to find ways to delete some information that I didn't think was as
pertinent as perhaps you think."
Dr. Stickel stated, "Well, I'm the professional and I think it's important to have it in
there. We can get to a point here where it's no longer my research design."
Member Johnston stated, "I think the Committee also feels it should remain also, is that
correct? "
\...
Member Willey stated, "May I make an additional clarification for you? Almost all
research papers, when a professional does them, they put forth either earlier research that
they have done that pertains to a clarification, because all research should advance
science. And sometimes the re-naming of periods is part of the nuance and part of the
new way of looking at a subject that the materials that were found in this area helps to
clarify. So you end up setting a new standard. And again, if this is considered as a
research paper, as a scientific document, that kind of information commonly appears
there. "
Mayor Forsythe stated "Okay."
Review of Page 15. Should be left in -- imporlant suppOrling infonnation. Also
should be section 6.0 rather than 4. O.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Again, the reason why this was deleted and this again has to do
with Gloria Carillo, this was referred to twice in the document - towards the back. I
don't see the point in repeating it twice."
Member Johnston stated, "I think that we left it in because it kind of goes into what the
ethnographic account that Boscana had made after that. So that's why we left that in.
Because Gloria Carillo was of that descent. So I think that's why we decided to leave
that in. We understand that it was mentioned on page 51, and we a comment on that
also. We left it in just to follow up on Boscana's work.
Mr. Whittenberg asked for clarification. "Is the concern if you left (out) the reference
to Mrs. Carillo and that area, but leave the rest of the reference about Father Boscana
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and then refer to her (Mrs. Carillo) ... in the other section, where she's already referred
to?"
Member Johnston stated, "If you can make a mention, refer to page "X" or a footnote
or something. We talked about that, didn't we Moira, that we could either make that
footnote. "
Member Hahn asked, "On what page is the original reference?" Member Johnston
answered, "Page 15 and then 51."
Member Goldberg stated, "The only objection I have to that - I'm not a Native American
but I've done a lot of work with the Native Americans - is that I feel they have a nice
history point made here. And you know, the whole point of doing this study is because
of Native Americans. I think it just gives people, a student in years to come, that would
just pick it up and get an idea about doing research ---."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Right. Again, the only concern here was that it was a duplicate
statement. And it's almost verbatim."
~
Member Goldberg stated, "In the back we clean it up and tell you what her real name
was and a little bit of other information."
Member Johnston inquired if the concern was about the redundancy?
Mayor Forsythe indicated it is a duplicate statement.
Member Johnston stated, "Well, we'd like to leave it in."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Okay. And then it's cleaned up on (page) 51?"
Member Hahn stated, "It's streamlined on 51 with a little more information than (page)
15. "
Review of page 16. Footnote is now three. Period at end of park and eliminate rest
of the sentence. In addition, as long as Hellman owns Gum Grove park it has to be
part of the excavation. If it is deeded to the city before mitigation it becomes the
responsibility of the City to do the mitigation.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Page 16 is where the Gum Grove comes 10 aga1O. And
presumably you'll go back and change it to the way it was."
.....
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Member Johnston stated, "No, I think we decided to remove the first part of the footnote
but to keep in the second part".
Mayor Forsythe asked, "You want to take out And will not be affected by the proposed
development"
Members Willey and Johnston indicated, "Correct."
Member Goldberg indicated the becomes 3 instead of 4.
Member Hahn stated, "I had one consideration. I had to leave the subcommittee meeting
early, and I don't know if I was this far along. I think maybe I was. But I think a better
word for excavation would be the test phase investigation. That's more specific."
There were no objections.
Member Hahn continued, "See page 16, on the notes, second sentence where it says The
excavation..., I think the wording should be changed to test phase investigation.
Mr. Whittenberg verified the discussion was to page 16 of the research design document.
~
Member Hahn asked, "This is where we are adding language, right?"
Members Goldberg and Johnston said "No, we are deleting language".
Member Hahn clarified, reading footnote 3, "Put a period at the end of park, and
eliminate the rest of the sentence. In addition, as long as Hellman owns Gum Grove
Park it has to be part of the text phase investigation. Are we going to write that in?"
Member Willey stated, "No, we weren't --- that was just a comment. To clarify. It was
meant as a clarification for someone reading the notes. "
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "It's just re-stating the position that we'd talked about earlier.
With a continuation of that footnote, LH-9 and LH-lO would remain".
Member Willey stated, "Yes, that's important information."
Review of page 21. Leave as is ~- valid scientific critique.
~
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Mayor Forsythe stated, "I just basically cleaned it up, taking out ... than any other
research on the property over the last 4 decades. I try to keep a positive outlook on
things and these negative things just kept popping out and I just didn't feel they belonged
in a document approved by the Council. So, I turned it into a positive statement where
it reads Although an amateur, Redwine did provide a 41 page report that provided
important information and interpretations on the Hellman sites. It just seems like the
negative aspect is so subjective and vague. But you guys do what you need to do. "
Chairperson Frietze stated, "Gwen, with all due respect, regardless of how many reports
are done on a property, you have to do constant updating. And that's what his whole
purpose was, to do a new study, get in there and find out what was missed from previous
studies. And that's a major concern with all the Native Americans when they're
mitigating --- that they do a current updated research design in the proposed area that is
to be developed. That's a real sore spot with us when you tried to bypass that, and just
use old reports. "
Mayor Forsythe concurred.
Member Hahn stated, "A brief point I would like to make is actually I felt Dr. Stickel
was praising Redwine here, not demeaning him."
~
Mayor Forsythe agreed, stating, "Oh, I do too. I absolutely do. But then there's
reference to the past four decades in which there really was lousy stuff done."
Member Fitzpatrick stated, "It's really by today's standards though. Redwine was a
graduate student."
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "Is it the Committee's consensus to leave the language as it is?"
Member Hahn stated, " There's a consensus to leave the original language as it was.
Review of page 21. Nuance - scientific critique of McKinney repeated Redwine as if
it was her own work.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Yes, I agree with that; taking simply out does change the
meaning of that. "
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "So, simply is okay to leave in?
Mayor Forsythe said, "Yes, its okay with me."
~
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Dr. Stickel stated, "I think there's an important point here. A professional would
understand this to mean she wasn't adding anything besides the original research that she
was just repeating it".
Review of page 24. Important critique of previous work. Leave in. It would be
professionally irresponsible not to mention errors detected in previous work as it might
indicate acceptance of substandard research. That would blemish the reputation of the
present researcher. Second is a so what change.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "I guess I really don't see the difference between an Anonymous,
i.e., unprofessionally presented report... versus an Unaccredited report. Unaccredited
means that that person was not qualified to do the report. There were some references
later to someone who provided valid information that was classified as anonymous."
Dr. Stickel stated, "A point of ethics with a professional organization, no archaeological
report shall be authored without the authors name on it. This is in both codes of ethics. "
Mayor Forsythe asked, "What's the difference between Anonymous and Unaccredited?"
~
Member Johnston stated, "We didn't have a problem with that; that wasn't an issue. It's
the large strikeout that you did. "
Mayor Forsythe asked, "Where? This big thing here?"
Member Johnston stated, "We didn't have a problem with unaccredited. It was this
whole section here."
Mr. Whittenberg clarified, "Where you start There are many errors in the AA report... ".
Really what you're talking about are the comments in the document.
Member Johnston stated, "I took offense to the statement that the Gabrielino culture is
entirely extinct today. I had just witnessed a traditional ceremony in Catalina this week-
end."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "What I'm concerned that this is all documented information in
quotations; we took out some that weren't documented. Again, make what changes you
need to make on this."
~
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Member Hahn asked, "Should we clarify what information we want left in since there
is some confusion about that?"
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "The major strikeout at the end of the top paragraph - beginning
with There are ... " .
Member Johnston stated, "The change on the bottom is fine, we don't have any problem
with that."
Mr. Whittenberg verified the change on the bottom is okay.
Members Willey, Johnston, and Hahn indicated the one at the bottom is okay and the one
at the top is also okay.
Review of pages 25 - 26. So what changes.
\...
Mayor Forsythe stated, "This one really bothered me, Unfortunately, the AA
recommendations were not followed, for the next year five of the Hellman sites were
ravaged by an unqualified person posing as a professional archaeologist. From a legal
standpoint, and this is one of the ones the City Attorney outlined, I thought you'd like
to put this in more delicate terms, such as Someone who wasn't quite up on industry
standards. Something more delicate. "
Dr. Stickel stated, "But it's all true."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Well, it's your opinion."
Dr. Stickel stated, "It's not in my opinion. He did not have a minimum degree in
Anthropology or Archaeology, I knew the person personally. He's now deceased. He's
not going to be suing the City. "
Member Fitzpatrick stated, "His family may."
Dr. Stickel said, "Fine, I've never been sued."
Member Unatin asked, "What if you just drop the word an --- by unqualified person
posing ...? Well at least it's a group of people who were making ... [Remainder of
conversation cannot be heard clearly on audio tape].
Mayor Forsythe stated, "She's still alive and lives in Riverside, so I'd rather not."
~
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Dr. Stickel stated, "As long as we can cite his report I don't care. It has to be cited.
He had no business doing archaeology, ravaging the sites. "
Member Hahn asked, "Can we say the same thing but make the language a little less
emotionaIl y?"
Dr. Stickel stated, "We'll look at it. "
Mr. Whittenberg asked if it then the consensus of this Committee for Dr. Stickel to tone
the language down without changing the intent of the criticism.
Dr. Stickel indicated he would let his more mellow colleague take a shot at it.
Member Unatin suggested leaving out the name of his company. "I really do like
ravaged by an unqualified person.
Mr. Minch indicated if you don't mention the person, then maybe the issue fades.
'-'
Mr. Whittenberg indicated that someplace along the way you will need to reference the
document and the author.
Mr. Minch suggested, "How about ravaged by a person who did not meet the minimum
standards for SOPA".
Members Goldberg and Fitzpatrick suggested not using ravaged.
Dr. Stickel responded, "I've won every lawsuit I've ever been engaged in."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "You wouldn't be the one who would be sued."
Review of page 27. Puts words in Stickel's mouth. Wrong.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "I'm putting words in Dr. Stickel's mouth, God forbid. I agree
this is changing the meaning of the sentence. Only 4 artifacts were found; what a
surprise. If you're leaving in the other in you're going to have to go back to that
wording" .
Dr. Stickel stated, "I have trouble finding suitable _"
~
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Mr. Minch interrupted, stating, "Well, we'll cure everything on page 27."
Member Johnston clarified that Dr. Stickel and Mr. Minch are going to work on both
pages 26 and 27, noting the problem we had was on the Author disagrees with this
finding." That's where, on page 27, we felt words were put in Dr. Stickel's mouth".
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Again, I was trying to delete the highly
destructive/unprofessional methods utilized .... So, we're saying basically we really
didn't agree with the way the work was previously done. Softening it up."
Member Johnston indicated he really didn't say that, so that's why we need pages 26 and
27 redone.
Member Hahn asked if Dr. Stickel agreed or disagreed.
Dr. Stickel responded, "Well, I'll try to tone down words like ravaged, but it is highly
destructive and it was unprofessional. I prefer my wording."
Member Hahn asked, "Couldn't you rework the wording?"
~
Mayor Forsythe stated, "This whole research design keeps flexing back and forth from
first speaker, second speaker, third speaker. Is it him talking? And if it's him talking,
then we shouldn't have any reference to the author I guess. It just seems like it's
jumping from all these different... ".
Dr. Stickel indicated it's standard archaeological scientific writing. You usually don't
say "I", its not done in the books and journals, and I have published many of them".
Review of pages 28 and 29.
Member Johnston indicated, "These pages are fine."
Review of pages 30 and 31. Return as it was. Valid criticisms. Cannot remove
references from a scientific paper.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Again, my concerns were _."
'--
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Member Johnston stated, "We thought that was fine, the first addition, the deletion was
okay."
Member Goldberg asked Dr. Stickel "One of the parts we talked about there Gary was
how you handled the thing about Rosenthal. We thought that needed to be cleared up
a bit on the bottom of page 30" .
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "To be clear, the first strikeout/redline in the middle of page 30,
is that one acceptable?"
Member Johnston indicated, "No. Only the top here, Unfortunately, ... that is fine."
Mayor Forsythe asked, "You want to start up at The documentation ... "?
Member Johnston stated, "That's fine, it just here that we wanted it ...".
Member Goldberg stated, "The part with the 700 bags, it needed to be made clearer."
~
Dr. Stickel stated, "Let's take this from the top and see what's going on. All 103 units
have been excavated (Rosenthal 1996: personal communication).' I spoke to her directly.
She wasn't certain because she didn't keep a map, notes or anything else I guess her
memory is flawed. I think it is unfortunate. No professionally adequate report was
generated for any of the excavations. Now her excuse was she wasn't paid. But in
SOP A and SAA it doesn't say whether you get paid or not. It says if you excavate you
have to turn out some sort of a report. Now maybe a short, summary descriptive thing,
fine. Nobody expects you turn out a magnum opus if you can't make a living while
you're doing it. But to turn out no reports, that's very inadequate."
Member Hahn asked what would the consensus of the Committee be? "Could we just
take out unfortunately and keep the rest of that paragraph? So it's still the same
information without the commentary. Because it's clearer, unfortunately."
[General Committee discussion occurred which is unintelligible on the tape].
Member Goldberg stated, "I don't think it was so much that part. It was when we were
talked about the 700 bags that were thrown out. And you mentioned Dave and Mola. "
Dr. Stickel stated, "That's the information I got when I pursued where is the data. /I In
response to a question from Mayor Forsythe, Dr. Stickel indicated nobody had
documented, his only reference is Mr. Bartlett.
~
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Member Unatin said that was at one of our meetings.
Member Goldberg stated, "Yes. But still if they were going to try to see if any of those
things were remaining."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "That's true but it's still hearsay. It's really not concrete _".
[Audio tape unintelligible].
[Mr. Bartlett, speaking from the audience, is not recorded clearly on audio tape].
Member Fitzpatrick asked, "Can we just say they are nowhere to be found?"
The Committee indicated it does say that, that they are nowhere to be found, they are
missing.
~
Dr. Stickel stated, "Apparently somebody threw them out because nobody has them
anymore. But I mean, I have to say here, that 30 years experience, this is one of the
worst examples I have ever seen of so-called professional archaeologist compromising
data like this. 700 bags of data. I don't care if it's 100 bags of data. This is a
tremendous loss to this city and to archaeology in Orange County. It's not something
that can be minimized."
Member Goldberg stated, "I guess the question I have, and I guess I was looking at you
Dave, meant that what we wanted to strike out was we agreed with Gwen on that - that
your name and all that can be used in the document. "
Mayor Forsythe stated, "I don't think I agree with that".
After general discussion, Member Unatin asked, "What about the trailers, we spent a
whole meeting on the trailers?"
After general discussion the Committee indicated the material is gone.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "It's gone. So how about misplaced"?
Chairperson Frietze objected, stating the way it is stricken out is affirming that it was
thrown out, it is gone.
Member Young asked, "How do you misplace 700 bags?"
Member Hahn asked would the Committee want to restore that passage?
\w
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Member Johnston asked, "What passage?"
Member Hahn stated, "The one we're talking about. Allfield notes, site maps showing
the locations of LSA units, and 700 bags of archaeological data were thrown out".
Chairperson Frietze indicated where she struck it out states all that.
Member Hahn asked should we have that restored rather than struck out?
Member Willey stated, "I could go with the way Gwen has it but what I would restore
is the parentheses (Conversation between Mr. Dave Bartlett of the Hellman Company and
... because that indicates that this isn't just something that's out there somewhere. It can
be ascribed. Somebody made this statement. It's no judgment of their veracity --- of
that statement --- it simply says I put this statement in here because somebody, named,
told me this. "
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "What if you put it as a footnote, just as a source?"
Member Johnston indicated that would be fine.
~
Member Unatin indicated if Mr. Bartlett doesn't object, why not leave it in?
Member Goldberg asked if Mr. Bartlett objected?
Mr. Bartlett responded, "Knowing what we all know about the previous development,
I don't know if what was told to me is the truth. "
Member Hahn stated, "That doesn't make any difference."
Member Willey stated, "That doesn't put a judgement on you Dave, it just says that this
is what they told you and you were kind enough to relay this information."
Mr. Bartlett indicated it seemed to him this should be a direct information, not through
him, but it should be through the archaeologist and the previous developer.
Member Unatin stated, "Okay, I'll go for a footnote. "
Member Hahn indicated she was confused as to what the consensus of the Committee is
on this.
~
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Member Goldberg stated, "The question is, do we want this as a footnote or leave it in
the body?"
Member Willey stated, "I'm confused, do we want the reference in a footnote or the
information in a footnote. II
Dr. Stickel stated, "Properly the information should be in the text because I'm discussing
it. "
Committee discussion ensued, with no clear direction given.
Regarding page 31.
Member Willey stated, "We felt it was a valid criticism. "
Mr. Whittenberg asked for clarification regarding page 31, with Member Goldberg
indicating the strikeout should be re-inserted.
~
Member Goldberg stated, "I'd like to make a comment that Moira (Hahn) had left. She
had another meeting that afternoon. So anything from this point on is without Moira and
had no influence".
Member Hahn asked, "What about the last thing on that page. We just talked about the
strikeout in the middle, but then there's one under the 700 bags, and I don't know what
the Committee wants to do on that."
Member Willey stated, "The Committee felt that if somehow Dr. Stickel could clarify
that and make it smoother. The information is important that he tried to get ahold of
both of them to get information. He could get ahold of one, couldn't get ahold of the
other. But it's really not terribly clear. And, we feel the information is important but
it does need to be clarified. And the other comment that I was going to make while I
have the floor is on page 31, where the cross-out occurs, that may be another place
where Dr. Minch can work with the phraseology a bit --- so that it says the same thing
but appears less offensive without losing the facts. "
Mr. Minch indicated he would go through the whole report.
Review of pages 32 and 33. Important information - leave in. Valid criticism on the
burials should leave in. Criticism of Desautels -- must leave all cross outs in --
substantiating data.
~
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Mayor Forsythe stated, "The only concern that I had here is that it in my mind it was
hearsay. I didn't see any type of documentation as far as something official thing. It
was personal correspondence and personal communication. All that type of thing. You
guys do what you want to do, but that was my concern."
Member Johnston stated, "My feeling was that since these had been conveyed as personal
communication what difference did it make whether we use Moira (Hahn), Moira wasn't
here when we did that."
Mayor Forsythe responded, "Because this is significant information and it's presented as
fact. And I don't know where the backup is. "
Dr. Stickel stated, "Professionally, in archaeology, you often times cite personal
communication. It's in every published journal that you ever find in archaeology. It's
not on the same level as having published reports or whatever, but it is acceptable. "
Member Willey stated, "And that's why you put it in as personal."
Member Unatin asked the Mayor, "What does it mean when you say okay?"
~
Mayor Forsythe responded, stating, "It means I'm not buying off on the changes. The
consensus of the Committee is to do this to the document. When I get the document
again I'll have to make a decision. I've made my feelings very clear on the Gum Grove.
The ones that I have concurred with, the changes that have altered the meaning, where
there is meaning, I've agreed to leave them in. I'm pretty much stating my objections
to the ones that are being deleted now and given the reasons why they were deleted. So
when I say okay, it's like just move on."
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "On pages 32 and 33, is it the consensus of the Committee that
all of strikeouts be reinserted?
Member Willey stated, "Right. Because the understanding is that when something is
listed as a personal communication we know that it does not necessarily carry the same
weight as something that is published. It is simply, somebody said it, it may be
important -- we don't know how much weight -- that's left to people in future generations
to decide." It was the consensus to reinsert all strikeouts on pages 32 and 33.
Review of page 34. Top must leave in. Bottom - changes OK make it smoother.
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Member Goldberg stated, "We said the top part we'd like to leave in, but the bottom part
of the page, the way the corrections are done is okay. "
Mayor Forsythe asked, "The top part meaning the bone and artifacts or The LSA project
"
Mr. Whittenberg asked for clarification.
Member Goldberg stated, "The top part that continues over from page 33 stays."
Mr. Whittenberg asked about the second strikeout which begins with The bone and
tif', ~ "
ar, l;acts ... .
Member Johnston stated, "The only thing she deleted was The tribal elders may have
reburied the finds in an undisclosed location. That was fine but (See Table 1 for thefour
sites at which burial data has been reported), we wanted to make sure that the four sites
remained in there, is that correct?
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "That's in the redlined version."
~
Member Willey stated, "Yes, we wanted that part restored."
Member Goldberg stated, "This is what we're talking about right now. The part that
stays in reads The bone was identified as Native American.... That all stays in."
Member Johnston stated, "What was taken out is The tribal elders may have reburied
their finds....
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "The only thing that has been taken out is The tribal elders may
have reburied their finds in an undisclosed location. Does that need to be back in this
document?" Member Hahn stated, "I was told it was, I was told Vera Rocha and her
family reburied it."
Dr. Stickel stated, "I think it is a Native American call on this."
Member Hahn agreed.
Chairperson Frietze stated, "I'm not a Gabrielino, but personally I think that should be
stricken. I don't think we need to consider that the elders took and buried it."
Mr. Whittenberg clarified that basically the redline remains.
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Member Johnston stated, "But we wanted to keep in the 13 sites."
Member Willey stated, "The bottom strikeout is considered fine, it clarifies."
Member Johnston stated, "There was one line in here that was taken out, on page 34,
and I don't remember exactly what we did. Right in the middle where it says Until such
time as adequate archaeological investigation at each site is conducted. At the middle
of the page. "
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "That's a nonsensical sentence; it doesn't say anything. It says
there's potential but doesn't say what the potential is."
Dr. Stickel stated, "Potential for burials is obvious. The previous sentence ends with
'burials' ... the potential for the discovery of burials. "
Member Johnston stated, "That's why we wanted to keep that in."
Member Hahn asked, "Do you want to add of burials between investigation and at?"
Member Johnston indicated yes.
~
Chairperson Frietze indicated she has a concern in using the term burial and suggested
use of coastal resources. Once the term is in there, you know the process, it sends up
red flags and we are trying to eliminate any kind of disturbance.
Dr. Stickel agreed.
Member Johnston stated, "I have a problem with that. I just want to leave it in."
Dr. Stickel stated, "The point is you might find human inhumations in the sites and you
have to be extremely careful with them, there are a number of ways to cover that, and
any are fine with me."
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "Aren't you really saying that in the sentence which says It
would appear that at least four of the sites in question have the potential of yielding more
Native American burials, there is a process if they yield Native American burials as to
what happens at that point in time --- already set forth in law?"
Chairperson Frietze indicated the standard procedure is to stop everything.
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Page 44 - City of Seal Beach
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After discussion among the Committee Mr. Whittenberg stated, "I'm not clear what your
decision is on this page. "
Dr. Stickel asked, "Is the word burial a problem?"
Member Johnston stated, "Yes."
Dr. Stickel asked, "Would a word like inhumations be better or cultural resources?
Mr. Minch suggested using human remains, indicating he felt the first burial has to have
human remains data has been found, and the last one could say remains, because we
don't know if they are burials.
Member Johnston stated, "Okay, so we're going to change that to human remains?"
Member Hahn asked if there is just one reference in the middle of the page?
Dr. Stickel indicated he understood and that was more sensitive.
~
Review of page 35. Valid criticism by a professional -- he and he alone is responsible
for the statements. Leave in. Bottom of page - leave as originally as.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Again, you guys do what you want to do. I was looking at it
from a different perspective."
Member Hahn stated, "In general, my concern is that we don't build a structure on a
faulty foundation. So that's why I think any reference to the quality of work done before
is important. In fact, it would reduce liability to the City. "
Mayor Forsythe stated, "But, if you're starting all over because nothing's been done
professionally to date, I wouldn't think that you'd be depending on these inadequate
reports at all. "
Member Hahn stated, "That's not it. If there are references to the reports, we have to
make it clear whether or not they were acceptable. "
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "So, the consensus on the first strikeout on page 35 is to reinsert
that language?" There was no objection from the Committee.
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Review of page 36. Leave as is -- 13 -- all will be affected. Bottom OK deletion.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "That's your 13 again." No other comments.
Review of page 37. Middle of page -- leave in. City and property owners are not
professionals.
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "I went back and looked at the comment letter from the State
Office of Historic Preservation. On their comment letter, the top of page 2, it says 'It
should be pointed out that the State Historic Preservation officer and other individuals
experienced in applying relevant criteria should also be consulted'. And that's in
reference to making a determination of significance on the site. It goes on to say that
'a consultation with the SHPO is not defined when determining whether the
archaeological site is unique but it should include, at a minimum, the City and the local
historical commission'. I just kind of remembered that kind of language being in there
at a later point in time."
'-'
Member Goldberg stated, "I think the thing that bothered me the most, it's not the city,
it's the property owner. If you're doing this for the benefit of the citizens of the City
of Seal Beach and doing it for them and not what the property owner wants to or not
want to do. If he doesn't want to develop the land because it's too expensive or he
doesn't want to do an expensive study that's fine. But he isn't drawn in the same way
the City is. Because the City has to listen to the citizens."
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "The City has certain requirements in archaeology also that
require certain things. I wanted to remind the Committee that there was a comment from
another agency that the City should be involved in the process also."
Member Goldberg stated, "I think even the front part where we eliminate the City, it
wasn't so much that we wanted to eliminate the City, we assumed that. It's just that we
felt that the property owner or the developer, whoever it may be, if it wasn't just an
individual family that was doing this, that the City needs to answer to the citizens and
not to the property owner. II
Chairperson Frietze stated, "The property owners have a lot to say."
Member Goldberg stated, "Absolutely. But for the research design, this is what the
archaeologist is presenting to the City for the benefit of the citizens of the community,
with the direction from the State and all the rules. If the property owner doesn't want
to go along with that, then he doesn't have to do it. And then it doesn't get developed."
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Page 46 - City of Seal Beach
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Mr. Whittenberg stated, "I think you're talking two different issues. The issue here is
who determines the significance of the site. It's not whether or not development occurs
and then how mitigation is impacted. I think those are two different issues."
Member Goldberg stated, "Well, we said leave in ... you know. I think it was clear
before. We can add the author and the city. Because the City has to give approval.
When they come to you with a plan, then that's when the City gives the approval."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "When you read the letter from the SHPO that it said the
research assignment was unclear, what did you think about that?"
Member Hahn stated, "I had one concern at the top. It didn't seem that the analyst at
the State Office understood what the ramifications of the permit were or what the project
was. Steve Grantham was the analyst that Cherilyn Widddel had review this. Then she
signed what he wrote. He said that he had asked Mr. Whittenberg about the project but
that nothing was clear yet, and that it had not been described to him. So part of his
problem was that he didn't know what Gary was trying to do. He didn't know what kind
of project we were talking about or that there even was definitely a project. Much less
what the Federal ramifications might be -- that's what he told me."
'-'
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "Let me clarify a little bit. He asked if an application had been
submitted so they could tell what the project was? I said no, a project had not been
submitted, this is a pre-submission process. So that means that until he knows what the
actual project is he can't tell whether or not its going to involve Federal or State
guidance. And until the project is submitted I can't give him that answer because I don't
know what the project, in its final form, is going to be. I told him it was going to be
a golf course and some homes."
Member Hahn asked, "You told him that?"
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "Yes."
Member Hahn responded, "Really."
Mr. Whittenberg continued, stating, "But I don't know the final layout of anything. I
don't know exactly where all the different pieces are going to go. Until we have an
application, I can't give him anything."
Member Hahn stated, "Part of his criticism seems to be leveled at the City for not
indicating to him exactly what type of project it is, and therefore what types of
identification should be made and what standard should be used."
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Page 47 - City of Seal Beach
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Mr. Whittenberg stated, "I can't give him that. We don't have a project. "
Mayor Forsythe stated, "The areas that I highlighted were specifically dealing with the
mitigation, the data recovery is premature, the design is unclear."
Member Hahn stated, "Right, premature, there is no project."
Member Goldberg indicated that was ok, it didn't change anything, it cleaned it up a
li ttle.
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "Returning to page 37. I want to make sure I understanding
where we're doing here. Leave in the original language?"
Member Hahn stated, "Correct. Wherever it says leave in, you're talking about the
'original language' , it refers to leaving in the original language. "
Review of page 38. OK change - cleans it up a little. Doesn't change the essence.
No Comments.
'-'
Review of page 39. OK - Spelling correction.
No Comments.
Review of pages 40 and 41. Leave crossed out infonnation. Scientific statements.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Again, you guys do what you want to do. "
Dr. Stickel stated, "That's all essential stuff to the research design."
Mayor Forsythe stated, "I just saw this as all your books and so, and I thought we had
that in the back of the document. "
Dr. Stickel responded, "No. The case in point is that I'm doing remote sensing, and I've
published in a large remote sensing project in Europe and that indicates I've got expertise
in this area. And that's what colleagues need to read."
Member Goldberg confirmed the original language would be left in.
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Review of pages 42, 43, 44 and 46. As long as the word each is used, the 13 doesn't
matter.
Member Hahn stated, "I want to call your attention to the Ultra Systems' EIR,
Archaeological Associates by David Van Horn. Another document on the Hellman
property, repeatedly quotes Dr. Stickel from 1978 about the people who lived in north
Orange County and specifically the Hellman property. So, its not just him ranting on
about how great he is, but there were other professionals that noted that. "
Mayor Forsythe stated, "This refers to the 13 again."
Member Willey stated, "Someone disagreed with that assessment, I believe, and wanted
the 13 left in. "
Mr. Whittenberg asked for clarification on the comment.
Member Hahn requested the language be left at 13.
Member Johnston agreed.
~
Mr. Whittenberg clarified that each is not going back in.
Member Goldberg indicated that each represented 13, because it said in the beginning.
But then somebody else got together and thought it would be better to consistently say
13 instead of saying each. Wherever 13 has been scratched out, we'd like that replaced.
There were no objections.
Review of pages 46 and 47. Credentials important -- put as footnotes.
No comments.
Review of page 48. No change and so what change on located.
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Relocated. As part of the site survey, each previously reported
site will be relocated. It just seems to me that that's kind of a limitation you're putting
on yourself."
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Page 49 - City of Seal Beach
Archaeological Advisory COllunittee Minutes · September 17, 1996
Review of pages 49 and 50. Better the way it was --- emphasis on burials is important.
Review of page 50. All sites. All will be affected (eliminate mayor's addition).
Bottom of page OK change.
Member Goldberg stated, "So, in other words, all sites mean the 13. Right. So leave
it as it was. "
Member Goldberg stated, "For the bottom, we said the Mayor's comment was fine, the
bottom of the page is ok for the change. "
Member Hahn asked if the only change was the word "thirteen "?
Members Willey and Goldberg indicated yes, and that the word "thirteen" should be
reinserted.
\.-
Review of page 50. Leave as Gary had it, except for who which should be "whose
Native tribal name is Acjachemem, more commonly referred to at juaneno. and
Change in Stickel's document to "Mrs. Carrillo has always been active in the cultural
preservation of her people". Also correct Carrillo spelling.
Mayor Forsythe couldn't find the language.
Member Willey indicated the reference should be to page 51.
Member Johnston suggested it should refer to tribal name instead of Native name.
Dr. Stickel agreed.
Member Goldberg stated, "We just thought that would be proper to do, indicating that
her name has been misspelled. Sonia says that instead of using presently we should say
Mrs. Carrillo has always been active in the cultural preservation of her people. They
haven't been able to locate her recently. We don't know if she's presently here in
California or if she's doing something else.
Dr. Stickel agreed.
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Page 50 - City of Seal Beach
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Member Goldberg stated, "The only other thing in the memo that I mentioned to you,
Mayor, was Ijust thought a there are a lot of people in the community that really do not
know that there is going to be a second phase to this development. Even what's written
in the paper. And I do feel that maybe it would be time, even though the plans haven't
been presented to the Council, but that it's leaving the community to feel there will be
60 some homes there and that's going to be the number. Even if the new phase doesn't
kick in for ten or fifteen years or twenty years, it's something that should be brought out
in the community. "
Mayor Forsythe stated, "There is. We saw the draft of the Specific Plan and there is
reference to the remainder parcel. It does state that in 15 to 20 years when the oil
extraction is done. It's in the Specific Plan."
Chairperson Frietze asked if there was any further business.
\.r
Mayor Forsythe stated, "Again I apologize for the public relations blunder and how this
was presented. But, you can ask Lee, I have taken one of his beautiful documents and
just torn it to shreds. I'm just coming from a different aspect. You expect to do your
own research and you know what you have to do as an individual. You know the
consensus of the community. I've got to tell you the Gum Grove group will go nuts.
It's going to have to be put out to the community."
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "From my standpoint, this is your third review as a committee.
What do you want me to do next? Do you want me to reformulate all of this into a
memorandum for Council, for review at your next meeting on October 9?"
Member Goldberg stated, "I would so move. And the reason why is that that may be
the material that when we get the new thing back from the City Council, on the changes
that we feel strong about having been done, then we have it, that we talked and discussed
it at that time. "
Chairperson Frietze asked, "Now are we going to get to see some of those comments
from the peer review board? Are they in yet?"
Mr. Whittenberg responded, "Yes, you will. I have one."
Member Hahn asked, "When will we receive them?"
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "I had planned on giving them to you at your October 9th
meeting because I will have them all at that point. As part of your agenda packet for
that meeting. If I get them soon enough, what we could do is send those out early and
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then if you have comments that you would like to give to the Council on the peer review,
we could incorporate that into your stuff at the October 9th meeting. If you would prefer
to deal with it that way. Keep in mind that your comments will go to the Council, and
the Council is still going to have to make a decision on how they're going to proceed.
I have no idea how they will deal with this subject. This is the first time they have ever
reviewed a research design document at the Council level. So it's going to be a new
issue for them to tackle, and how quickly they will respond to that issue, I don't know. "
MOTION by Goldberg: SECOND by Hahn that the Committee receive today's
minutes and the comments from the peer review archaeologists as soon as possible
to allow review time prior to the next meeting.
MOTION CARRIED: 9 - 0 - 1
A YES:
Fitzpatrick, Goldberg, Hahn, Johnston, Price, Unatin, Willey, Young
and Chairperson Frietze
None
Benjamin
NOES:
ABSENT:
~
Member Goldberg asked, "Are we going to write a letter to the Mayor and the Council
for that meeting? Can we have this on the October 9th Agenda? So we can discuss, as
a committee, writing a letter to the Mayor and the Council summarizing what took place
here today, as a formal letter to the Council. "
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "This will be in addition to the minutes of the meeting?"
Member Goldberg indicated yes, with Member Hahn asking if we need a motion for
that?
Mr. Whittenberg indicated staff can just be put on the agenda as a discussion item.
Member Hahn indicated we want this as an action item, not a discussion item.
Mr. Whittenberg asked, "Do you want me to draft a letter?"
Chairperson Frietze indicated she thinks we need to discuss this before we make an
action.
Member Hahn stated, "It should be a scheduled matter that we can bring up those
concerns, not necessarily write the letter, but that we have the option to do it if we prefer
to. "
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Page 52 - City of Seal Beach
Archaeological Advisory Conunittee Minutes · September 17, 1996
Member Johnston clarified that the desire of the Committee to have it under scheduled
matters.
Member Hahn indicated it should be under scheduled matters so we can discuss whether
we want to do that.
Chairperson Frietze indicated we can still do it and call a special meeting between then
and the City Council meeting to discuss this, and this needs to be clarified.
Chairperson Frietze stated the Member Hahn presented that we put this letter for
discussion as a scheduled matter on the next agenda, October 9.
Member Hahn stated, "I would like to clarify, that doesn't mean we necessarily have to
do it, it gives us the option to do it, if we want to do it then."
MOTION by Hahn; SECOND by Fitzpatrick that the Committee have on the agenda
as a scheduled matter the issue of whether or not the Committee would like to write
a letter in response to the Mayor's rewrite at the October 9 meeting.
Chairperson Frietze asked for discussion.
~
Member Unatin asked which rewrite, this one or the next one?
Mr. Whittenberg indicated it is hard to write a letter on a document that doesn't exist
yet.
Member Unatin further stated the Mayor gets kudos's for being here, she didn't have to
do this. Member Hahn indicated that is true.
Chairperson Frietze indicated Mayor Forsythe was saying Okay, indicating the fact that
we are accepting it, not that she is accepting it.
Member Unatin stated, "What she said specifically was that she is making her notes, and
she will review the document. You're going to rewrite this document to whatever you
were able to put together."
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "I'm not going to rewrite anything. I am going to do the minutes
of the meeting that will go through your discussion of what items you felt you needed
to be recommend back to the Council and should be left in and which one's were okay
with her (Mayor Forsythe) changes. I'm going to prepare a memorandum from the
Chairperson, that will walk through each of those agreements or disagreements, for you
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to look at at your next meeting. After the Committee takes an action on the memo, then
that will go up to the Council, where the whole process [Audio tape is unclear], and
hopefully you will have as part of that process on the 9th the ability to review the peer
review of all three archaeologists. You may not have that opportunity, I don't know if
we will have all, hopefully we will get them all in by that point in time."
Member Goldberg stated, "I think, if we don't get anew, second redline from the
Mayor, we will act on what we did tonight, plus the first redline. "
Member Unatin stated, "There is no question that she's redoing her redline based on the
comments made here tonight, but in Ok'ing that she will decide later."
Mr. Minch stated, "We have Gary's original document, the Mayor's redline document,
the review that the Archaeological Committee did, the changes that were made here
tonight, and I guess three other things. Are any of these going to be brought together?"
Member Goldberg responded, "I would hope so."
Mr. Minch continued, asking, "Is the Council going to approve something that says we
will take this and this .."
~
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "My hope is that once this Committee has gone back and made
your, you've agreed on what's been discussed tonight, and if you have an agreement on
stuff on peer review, we will forward up a new element that reflects the Committee's
position at that point in time for the Council to look at. "
Mr. Minch stated, "Because, Gary and I can sit down and look at those things, and think
there are some of those things we may not find objectionable at all and there may be
more consensus of opinion than some people feel.
Member Goldberg stated, "But I think that that would be what you would have to discuss
at the Council meeting because the final say is the Council and the Mayor. I think it was
great that she came and that we were able to discuss this. What comes out of it, at some
point our hands are tied and then that's up to the Council to make a decision. If we
don't like it, just the same way as if you don't like it, then you can go to the City
Council meeting that night and say I don't want to do the research design for the City
because you've changed it so much it's beyond what I can even work with."
Dr. Stickel stated, "It's no longer my research design. It's a censored document."
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Mr. Minch stated, "My question is, will the Council have a document to approve? It
sounds like they're going to have a bunch of comments on things and no document in
front of them to approve. "
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "My hope is that --- they're going to end up with two documents
unfortunately. And if we have the time to do --- ".
Dr. Stickel stated, "The Mayor's and mine."
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "Yours as modified by the Committee, based on the discussions
we've had to this point in time. And at this point I don't know that it makes --- I guess
we could probably just go back and do a redline/strikeout based on your final version
based on the memorandum at your next meeting and then do a redline/strikeout showing
the Mayor's stuff into that. That might be the easiest to try to do."
Member Price stated, "She kept saying that, OK _ she was looking at it from her
point of view and she didn't realize that all that technical stuff had to be in so she was
going to leave a lot of that it. "
-....
Chairperson Frietze indicated we have a motion and a second. All in favor say" Aye".
Anyabstentions? We had one last comment from the audience.
MOTION CARRIED: 9 - 0 - 1
A YES:
Fitzpatrick, Goldberg, Hahn, Johnston, Price, Unatin, Willey, Young
and Chairperson Frietze
None
Benjamin
NOES:
ABSENT:
Mr. Bartlett stated, "This is on a different subject, but last week we asked for the
original aerial photography, and the information that was derived to interpret that, and
I would like to review that."
Chairperson Frietze asked Mr. Whittenberg, "Didn't you say that that was a sensitive
area? That we couldn't actually have possession of it but that you could view it?"
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "At this point the City doesn't have the originals from Dr.
Stickel. "
Dr. Stickel stated, "Dave, I'd like to ask why you want that at this point in time?"
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Mr. Bartlett answered, "We feel that, the only thing we reviewed is an 81/2 x 11" black
and white photograph that was marked, we really couldn't interpret what was on it
because it was a bad copy. "
Dr. Stickel asked, "Do you intend to interpret yourself? Or a counter interpretation of
a photograph or something?"
Mr. Bartlett responded, "Well, I just want to be able to look --- there was no scale and
there was no date on the photograph. I just want to have the information.."
Dr. Stickel stated, "It hasn't been formally presented as part of a report yet, we're way
away from that."
Mr. Bartlett asked, "So you don't want to hand it over?"
Dr. Stickel stated, "Well, I mean, you have essentially stopped the project have you not?
You're not paying us any more. Our invoice has not been paid as we speak."
Chairperson Frietze strikes gavel.
~
Mr. Bartlett stated, "We need to talk with Lee about it. I mean, Lee is forwarding the
invoices to Hellman. It's my understanding all of the invoices have been paid."
Chairperson Frietze asked Mr. Whittenberg, "How do you want to address this?"
Mr. Whittenberg stated, "There's too many different issues here. The issue the
Committee, I think, needs to deal with is, the property owner's has made a request for
documentation that's been prepared on his property which, under the Archaeology
Element, he has the right to do. He does not have the right to take it home with him.
He doesn't have the right to do (unclear), but he has the right to review it here in our
offices. But right now we don't have that original information."
Dr. Stickel stated, "Let me clarify that. Because the aerial photographs were paid for,
but the computer image enhancement has not been paid for. It hasn't even been
presented as a proposal, let alone paid for."
Mr. Bartlett stated, "Well, of the document that you're submitted to us, I guess, or to
the City Council that was five or six pages."
Dr. Stickel stated, "Yes."
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Archaeological Advisory Conuuittee Minutes · September 17, 1996
Mr. Bartlett continued, "There is no way that we can review that and come to the
conclusion that you came to. So, I think.."
Dr. Stickel stated, "I don't understand why you think it's appropriate for you and your
company to be doing this at this point. Because we haven't even got to the point of
presenting our site survey findings yet. "
Mr. Bartlett stated, "Well, you presented it to the City Council. All we want to do is
see the same data they saw."
Dr. Stickel asked, "Why?"
Chairperson Frietze stated, "We need a Motion to adjourn."
MOTION by Goldberg; SECOND by Price to adjourn.
MOTION CARRIED: 9 - 0 - 1
A YES:
Fitzpatrick, Goldberg, Hahn, Johnston, Price, Unatin, Willey, Young
and Chairperson Frietze
None
Benjamin
~
NOES:
ABSENT:
V ice-Chairperson,
Archaeological Advi
Whittenberg, Secretary
Archaeological Advisory Com
Note: These Minutes are tentative until approved by the Archaeological Advisory Committee.
The Archaeological Advisory Committee Minutes of September 17, 1996 were approved on
October 9 , 1996.
......
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